LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

[BurghersAndDogsSports]

And to the first point, that number is almost impossible to calculate because of the fact that 1 illegal immigrant job simply does not equate to 1 citizen collecting a welfare check. It also does not mean that every illegal job represents a job not being held by a citizen.

Who says it does? But you also can't completely ignore that there *is* a social cost to displaced US workers, and these studies don't factor *any* of that in.

Not all ILLEGALS work in the fields picking vegetables... it's kind of demeaning to them to say that they do. Many are working in auto body shops, as welders, etc... I think maybe you're the one who needs to get out more ;)

I would guess, and I honestly do not know, but all of the illegal workers are a large portion of the financial issues in California. And wasn't NYC hours from bankruptcy at one point?

I agree that right now there is an economic upturn because of their work but there has to be a negative end of the ledger as well.

Where that break is I don't know.

[Sarcastic]

Awful stuff in Israel. A bomb exploded on a bus. 17 people injured, 5 badly. First bus-bomb attack since 2006. Initial reaction is complete fear among people, thinking back to 2000-2004 when bombs on buses or in coffee shops were routine. Now what will be Israel's reaction. Expanding war. I don't know. It could mark the beginning of attacks inside Israel. Probably not a good move. I'd stress hastened peace talks.

Current numbers are about 5 Israelis dead vs 130 Palestinians.

[shafnutz05]

What a mess.

On one side, you have people that have absolutely no qualm deliberately targeting civilians. Not for any strategic reason except to drive the population into abject terror.

On the other side, you have a bullish PM that has no qualms bombing legitimate military targets, even though Hamas and their bros deliberately shield their missile batteries and leaders with women and children. After the attacks, they act indignant and use those civilian deaths as justification for more murder and mayhem, even though they were really the ones responsible for the deaths.

Peace is never going to happen there. There are plenty of people that want peace, but the people that want to exterminate the other side are far too influential. It's a shame they couldn't carve out a nice little niche for Israel post-WWII that wasn't in the middle of multiple theocratic Islamic states.

[shafnutz05]

To add, you can bet the Israeli death toll would be significantly higher if Iron Dome didn't exist.

I think both sides have plenty of fault in this conflict, but make absolutely no mistake about it: There is ONE SIDE in this that deliberately murders their own civilians (by strategically placing them on top of their military targets) and deliberately tries to target civilians on the other side, even preferring to blow up a bus over a combat target.

I get a little irritated when people talk about how many civilians the Israelis are "slaughtering", and how disproportionate the reaction is. If Hamas wasn't purposely sacrificing their women and children for some kind of political gain, there wouldn't be half the outrage. Both sides need a leader that will aggressively pursue peace.

[Sarcastic]

What sucks for Palestinians is that Hamas aren't really that popular. They did win the elections and run some things, but vast majority of people aren't into that rocket lauching crap and are paying the price.

Problem in Israel is that many people in high positions are of the same mind that are the crazy settlers who run around with machine guns on their backs and terrorize Palestinian villages. Even Netanyahu has to worry about his own status so he often has to listen. It's very complicated. And those settlers fight with the police and the army and basically don't give a puck.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/jewish-population-west-bank-up

""" The Palestinians say settlement growth is strangling any prospect of a viable state in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. The issue is the main block to resuming negotiations with Israel. A 10-month partial freeze on settlement expansion came to an end almost two years ago, since when there have been no meaningful talks.

One Israeli politician predicted that the number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would reach 1 million within four years. At that point "the revolution will have been completed", Yaakov Katz told the newspaper.

Meanwhile, settlers' leader Dani Dayan said the Jewish presence in the West Bank was "an irreversible fact". Writing in the New York Times, he said: "Trying to stop settlement expansion is futile ... Western governments must reassess their approach to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. """

If that's the case, then we may be looking at a single-state solution, something that Israeli leaders don't want since they're worried about having to share power or even being overtaken in time.

[Sarcastic]

I think both sides have plenty of fault in this conflict, but make absolutely no mistake about it: There is ONE SIDE in this that deliberately murders their own civilians (by strategically placing them on top of their military targets) and deliberately tries to target civilians on the other side, even preferring to blow up a bus over a combat target.

That may be true of this conflict, but as that article Gary posted said, the war on Palestinian civilians has been raged for years. This conflict now is about much more than what has occured in the last few weeks.

[ExPatriatePen]

I think both sides have plenty of fault in this conflict, but make absolutely no mistake about it: There is ONE SIDE in this that deliberately murders their own civilians (by strategically placing them on top of their military targets) and deliberately tries to target civilians on the other side, even preferring to blow up a bus over a combat target.

That may be true of this conflict, but as that article Gary posted said, the war on Palestinian civilians has been raged for years. This conflict now is about much more than what has occured in the last few weeks.

Part of the problem in the Middle East is that people constantly justify their actions and positions by citing history. There's plenty of history and justification on BOTH sides.

They need to say "Today is Nov 2012" what can we start doing tomorrow to ensure that more civilians aren't sacrificed in the name of this jihad.

[Gaucho]

Why Marco Rubio Needs To Know That The Earth Is Billions Of Years Old

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/11/19/why-marco-rubio-needs-to-know-that-the-earth-is-billions-of-years-old/

[Sarcastic]

They need to say "Today is Nov 2012" what can we start doing tomorrow to ensure that more civilians aren't sacrificed in the name of this jihad.

I agree. I mean. This is what I do if I'm Israel's PM. I make full peace with Palestinians. Pour money into that area. Open schools. Build houses. Create an infrastructure. Make them love me. You can be sure that Hamas would almost immediately disappear and people in Israel wouldn't have to worry about getting blown up. The ball is in Israel's hands. They're with the money and the power. But it seems just the opposite. Goal is to eliminate as many Arabs (and Christians for that matter) from Jerusalem - many rabbis there put out orders not to rent to anyone other than Jews... to their credit, Netanyahu''s government did criticize it - and take over as much of the other territory as well. How are those people supposed to respond? When they are refused building permits that are instead given to Jews. When their houses are so often simply overtaken by the army. Or bulldozed. There was a story a couple years back when a supreme court judge in Israel spoke out, saying that what he saw reminded him of his grandmother under Nazi Germany, when he saw an old lady search through her bulldozed home for what was left of her possessions. He was immediately silenced and forced to apologize.

Even if such peace occured, Israel would have to worry about civil war with the militant settlers that are rabid and many.

[columbia]

They could start by allowing anything to be exported from Gaza.
It's harder to radicalize someone, if they have to be at work.

[Sarcastic]

Oh, yeah. Allow for normalcy. That's all they want, really.

[GaryRissling]

The reason, IMO, the ME is a mess is because of intolerant theocracies. The ultimate goal of free societies is the application of the belief that all men are created equal and are endowed with the same unalienable rights. Zionism elevates one race above others, in much the same way (at least in principle) other theocracies elevate arab muslims above others. I don't think we should unconditionally support any racially exclusive ideology, and we should be working to open such cultures up to the ideas of liberty and human rights upon which our own country founded. The congressional resolution on support for Israel passed yesterday (with the notable dissent of Kusinich) was uncomfortable. A two-state solution is preferable to what we have today, but really we should be pushing for for Israel to become the first free society in the ME by opening up their political process to non-Jews. Would that not be more consistent with our own beliefs?

[columbia]

There seems to be only two solutions:
Create a separate state or deport every Arab.

The status quo (of apartheid) clearly isn't the answer.

[ExPatriatePen]

Why Marco Rubio Needs To Know That The Earth Is Billions Of Years Old

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/11/19/why-marco-rubio-needs-to-know-that-the-earth-is-billions-of-years-old/

What a piece of crap journalism.

So Marco Rubio is clueless because he shares a party affiliation with Paul Broun? Inane.

Barrack Obama is clueless then because he's from the same party as Nancy Pelosi.

What a complete stretch to go from someone saying that people (children) should be taught multiple schools of thought and then be able to decide for themselves what to believe to implying that they can't manage the economy because of those views. Anything else is akin to propoganda is it not?

When are people going to stop these petty partisan "D" vs. "R" divisions and start focusing on what's important? Things like resolving the fiscal cliff and giving business and investors a clear idea of what the rules will be going forward, is a bit more important than the fact that some politician thinks people should be given the right to think for themselves (as opposed to sharing your personal views on the age of the earth)

[Sarcastic]

The reason, IMO, the ME is a mess is because of intolerant theocracies. The ultimate goal of free societies is the application of the belief that all men are created equal and are endowed with the same unalienable rights. Zionism elevates one race above others, in much the same way (at least in principle) other theocracies elevate arab muslims above others. I don't think we should unconditionally support any racially exclusive ideology, and we should be working to open such cultures up to the ideas of liberty and human rights upon which our own country founded. The congressional resolution on support for Israel passed yesterday (with the notable dissent of Kusinich) was uncomfortable. A two-state solution is preferable to what we have today, but really we should be pushing for for Israel to become the first free society in the ME by opening up their political process to non-Jews. Would that not be more consistent with our own beliefs?

I would love for Israel to become that way. Problem is as I said. There are too many people in high positions who want Israel to be a nation for Jews only. That's why we're seeing what is happening now and over the past 20 years. Even as a Christian, if you go to some places in Israel, you will be harassed by people. It's religious extremism, not unlike their Muslim counterparts.

[Sarcastic]

Wait, the earth is BILLIONS years old!?!?

[Gaucho]

Why Marco Rubio Needs To Know That The Earth Is Billions Of Years Old

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/11/19/why-marco-rubio-needs-to-know-that-the-earth-is-billions-of-years-old/

What a piece of crap journalism.

So Marco Rubio is clueless because he shares a party affiliation with Paul Broun? Inane.

Barrack Obama is clueless then because he's from the same party as Nancy Pelosi.

What a complete stretch to go from someone saying that people (children) should be taught multiple schools of thought and then be able to decide for themselves what to believe. Anything else is akin to propoganda is it not?

When are people going to stop these petty partisan "D" vs. "R" divisions and start focusing on what's important? Things like resolving the fiscal cliff and giving business and investors a clear idea of what the rules will be going forward, is a bit more important than the fact that some politician thinks people should be given the right to think for themselves (as opposed to sharing your personal views on the age of the earth)

Well, don't shoot the messenger.

[columbia]

Placating the flat-earth crowd of the GOP doesn't seem like a good electoral strategy.

[GaryRissling]

As a former Republican, I hope they get crushed until they are forced to offer libertarian minded candidates. Of course, I also hope the Dems get crushed until they offer liberal (in the ACLU-loving sense) candidates. No one can look at Obama's Justice Dept and confuse him for a liberal; just the same as Bush couldn't be confused with a conservative.

[Sarcastic]

Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/21/15327753-israel-and-hamas-agree-to-gaza-cease-fire

[Sarcastic]

Palestinian intelligence sources told NBC News that, according to the cease-fire agreement: Israel will guarantee not to assassinate any leaders of Hamas or any other organization; Israel and Hamas will commit to abide to restoring calm on both sides; after a few months, Israel will consider easing the movement for Palestinians.

[Sarcastic]

[ExPatriatePen]

Placating the flat-earth crowd of the GOP doesn't seem like a good electoral strategy.

You and I read that differently.

To me, Rubio is saying that children should be taught different viewpoints and be able to make up their own minds. (the only other option is that they should be taught only one viewpoint and TOLD what to believe.)

Seems like the right approach to me.

What do you believe Columbia? Do you think it's better NOT to teach children that some people believe the holocast never occured, that some people believe (SPB) the earth is flat, that SPB aliens landed in area 51 or that SPB the Earth will end in one month?

Do you think people are too stupid to think for themselves?

Hmmmm....

I retract my question.

[Sarcastic]

EPP, we disagree.

Should they be told it's OK if they believe some mumbo jumbo that earth is 9,000 years old for religious reasons? I don't think it's OK. It's creating morons who don't believe in science, to put it bluntly. We either stay ignorant with our heads in some book or we advance the civilization.

[Sarcastic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3629559.stm

Jewelry found estimated at 75,000 years old.