LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:51 pm

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:00 pm

BigMcK wrote:Do we raid them if they don’t supply us with our drip?

1. I’m sure coca would grow just fine in many parts of the United States, and it’s already abundantly clear that MJ can be profitable grown under artificial lighting. We can grow it here.

Create the demand for heavily addictive narcotics through legalization.

2. Supply ≠ demand. Just because something is legal to purchase and use something does not mean that anyone will want to buy it. Would you start using drugs just because they’re legal? I wouldn’t.

Allow these drugs to be purchased at legal store fronts. Will this be with or without a prescription? Is there a legal age to consider? Will there be any oversight as to quantity and quality of product sold? Who pays for the overdose victim’s funeral and will family members left behind be able to sue the legal storefront if the quantity or quality were too strong?

3. Without.
4. Make it the same as alcohol, if you want one.
5. I’d prefer not, but the FDA could regulate it.
6. The victim's estate.
7. Sure. Regular tort law already recognizes such causes of action.

Since they are now legal, do we release those incarcerated on drug charges back into society? What if they committed a major felony while trying to obtain money to purchase the once illegal drug? Should they be allowed to be free?

8. I would be handing out pardons like candy for purely drug-related offenses. Let them go free.
9. No, other violent crimes would not be subject to pardon.

The person that is now purchasing the legal drug becomes addicted and is now longer employable due to the effects of the drug. Do we offer them unemployment because of their addiction or disability? Do we incarcerate said person for their addiction once they resort to criminal activities to obtain money to purchase their drugs? Are insurance companies mandated to provide funds for prescriptions for harmful drugs?

10. No. If you voluntarily agree to do drugs, then you voluntarily assume the risk of any negative results. As the saying goes, “take what you want, and pay for it.” Personally, I wouldn’t offer government-run unemployment to anyone. I would have no problems if private entities wanted to offer private forms of unemployment insurance.
11. Yes. Being an addict is not a license to commit crimes.
12. No.

Oh, once the addiction is so sever that medical treatment is required, is there funding available for treatment of the damage done to the human body only, or does funding also include rehabilitation? Does funding include cosmetic repair, because we have all seen what happens to nice looking people once they start using addictive drugs like Meth to make them look like scarecrows. How about nasal cavity reconstruction from the snorting of Cocaine; is that to be funded?

13. Not public funding. If private companies want to offer such coverage, they can. Likewise, charities and similar entities may choose to make addiction treatment part of their missions. I have no problems with that and might choose to donate to them. But the government should get out of the business of saving adults from their voluntary choices.
14. See answer 13.
15. See answer 13.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:04 pm

Sarcastic wrote:Only way to cut out drug gangs and all the violence that go with them is to legitimize legalize. Or am I missing something? Kinda doing 5 things at once here, so I can't give it my complete thought. Interesting arguments on both sides, though.


edit: i really need to be more careful when i type. i sometimes make such silly mistakes that i read my posts a day later and ask myself how in the hell i did that.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:05 pm

Good stuff, Shyster.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:11 pm

BigMcK wrote:Know too many (former, current, dead) addicts to not drop in on this.


Then you should also know quite a few who rehabilitated themselves with the help of Methadone clinics as well.

Bring it out of the shadows and into the open where education and support services are available will make a difference.

I don't know about you, but part of the allure to many marijuana recreational users is the very nature of it's being a 'taboo' in modern society.

Avocating for legalization of Pot does not neccessarily mean one advocates for the legalization of Crystal Meth.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:14 pm

wait... it doesnt?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:32 pm

Cyber Monday bust: US law enforcement joins in world-wide seizure of 132 domain names
http://www.networkworld.com/community/b ... main-names
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:38 pm

BTW, I also don't think we'd see a massive influx of druggies. Maybe a minimal increase at first, but I think people in general wouldn't go for it because I think most already know what that can lead to. Maybe a few dummies, but I think the idea of taking violent gangs and handing them a severe blow to their entire existence would be a positive trade-off.

Rules would need to be in place. Maybe hospitals or private companies would distribute the drugs. You'd have to register, etc..

I think EPP used the right wording. It'd be a good idea to bring the whole thing out of the shadows.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:21 pm

columbia wrote:Cyber Monday bust: US law enforcement joins in world-wide seizure of 132 domain names
http://www.networkworld.com/community/b ... main-names


This effort is like the "boiler room bookie" busts around the super bowl every year. It happens like clock work.

I just think it's funny that they do it through domain names... that's such low-hanging fruit.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Rylan on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:27 pm

Legalize drugs to eliminate the taboo against them. Allow people to get help without fear of penalty by the law or state. Until then, the war on drugs is a money suck.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:33 pm

I'm for full legalization, but let's not kid ourselves about the effect it will have on addiction rates.
There are very few (aka no one) who can do heroin/morphine for 3 or 4 days in a row and NOT become addicted.

Hell, talk to anyone who is coming off a 1 month Valium prescription....those first few days aren't very pleasant.

If it ever happens, we collectively have to be prepared for a lot of pretty **** up people.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:39 pm

But how many adults out there are really walking around going, "Boy, I'd give anything to shoot up some heroin right about now, but I can't because it's illegal..."

Maybe there are lots. I don't know because I don't use drugs. I just can't imagine the legal/illegal part is really a factor for the type of people want to get high.


columbia wrote:I'm for full legalization, but let's not kid ourselves about the effect it will have on addiction rates.
There are very few (aka no one) who can do heroin (or other opiates) 3 or 4 days in a row and NOT become addicted.

Hell, talk to anyone who is coming off a 1 month Valium prescription....those first few days aren't very pleasant.

If it ever happens, we collectively have to be prepared for a lot of pretty **** up people.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:38 pm

columbia wrote:I'm for full legalization, but let's not kid ourselves about the effect it will have on addiction rates.
There are very few (aka no one) who can do heroin/morphine for 3 or 4 days in a row and NOT become addicted.

Hell, talk to anyone who is coming off a 1 month Valium prescription....those first few days aren't very pleasant.

If it ever happens, we collectively have to be prepared for a lot of pretty **** up people.


As a follow up on this, who pays for people who get addicted (legally) to get help?

Are the taxpayers going to foot the bill for rehab? Is it going to be funded through the taxes gained by selling the product legally?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:51 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
columbia wrote:I'm for full legalization, but let's not kid ourselves about the effect it will have on addiction rates.
There are very few (aka no one) who can do heroin/morphine for 3 or 4 days in a row and NOT become addicted.

Hell, talk to anyone who is coming off a 1 month Valium prescription....those first few days aren't very pleasant.

If it ever happens, we collectively have to be prepared for a lot of pretty **** up people.


As a follow up on this, who pays for people who get addicted (legally) to get help?

Are the taxpayers going to foot the bill for rehab? Is it going to be funded through the taxes gained by selling the product legally?


It could be funded by the taxes gained. But again... addiction to 'Herb ???

As far as harder drugs being legalized, as Corso says "Not so fast my friend..."

Let's start with legalizing pot (as the states of Washington and Colorado have done) and take it from there.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:57 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
columbia wrote:I'm for full legalization, but let's not kid ourselves about the effect it will have on addiction rates.
There are very few (aka no one) who can do heroin/morphine for 3 or 4 days in a row and NOT become addicted.

Hell, talk to anyone who is coming off a 1 month Valium prescription....those first few days aren't very pleasant.

If it ever happens, we collectively have to be prepared for a lot of pretty **** up people.


As a follow up on this, who pays for people who get addicted (legally) to get help?

Are the taxpayers going to foot the bill for rehab? Is it going to be funded through the taxes gained by selling the product legally?


It could be funded by the taxes gained. But again... addiction to 'Herb ???

As far as harder drugs being legalized, as Corso says "Not so fast my friend..."

Let's start with legalizing pot (as the states of Washington and Colorado have done) and take it from there.


I was going by what columbia was talking about. He was talking about all drugs.

And you know they're going to start legalizing more after pot. It's only a matter of time. I hate to get into the slippery slope, but if you legalize pot, you open to door for more. People busted for heroin, etc. are going to wonder why pot is legalized, but their drug isn't.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Rylan on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:59 pm

All drugs should be legal. Any money spent towards the prevention should be shifted towards rehab.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:04 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
columbia wrote:I'm for full legalization, but let's not kid ourselves about the effect it will have on addiction rates.
There are very few (aka no one) who can do heroin/morphine for 3 or 4 days in a row and NOT become addicted.

Hell, talk to anyone who is coming off a 1 month Valium prescription....those first few days aren't very pleasant.

If it ever happens, we collectively have to be prepared for a lot of pretty **** up people.


As a follow up on this, who pays for people who get addicted (legally) to get help?

Are the taxpayers going to foot the bill for rehab? Is it going to be funded through the taxes gained by selling the product legally?


It could be funded by the taxes gained. But again... addiction to 'Herb ???

As far as harder drugs being legalized, as Corso says "Not so fast my friend..."

Let's start with legalizing pot (as the states of Washington and Colorado have done) and take it from there.


I was going by what columbia was talking about. He was talking about all drugs.

And you know they're going to start legalizing more after pot. It's only a matter of time. I hate to get into the slippery slope, but if you legalize pot, you open to door for more. People busted for heroin, etc. are going to wonder why pot is legalized, but their drug isn't.


Cue the ridiculous "gateway drug" comments... (Not directed specifically at you MR25)

I'm a firm believer that milk is a gateway liquid to hard alcohol too... every alcoholic I know started with a glass of milk.

(The above is obviously an overstatement, but in no way should Pot be grouped into the larger discussion about the legalization of all drugs)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:08 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:every alcoholic I know started with a glass of milk.


Dude, I burst out laughing. I think I even spit some.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:09 pm

I meant it more as there will be dealers/users who get caught with heroin, cocaine, etc. that will say "Well, pot is legal. Why isn't ______ legal too?"

That's sort of what I was getting at.

And I wasn't really saying "If you legalize pot, people will want to do harder." It's what I said above: "People who do harder will want their stuff to be legalized because pot is."
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:12 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:every alcoholic I know started with a glass of milk.


Dude, I burst out laughing. I think I even spit some.

:wink:

Can you tell that I've had this conversation before?

My final grade in my Public Speaking course at Pitt in 1980 (The class I shared with Dan Marino) was based on a speach that I gave on the legalization of Pot.

(Thank you professor Bruce Abhrams)

I've been advocating for this for over 30 years now.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:13 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote: in no way should Pot be grouped into the larger discussion about the legalization of all drugs


I don't see why not. Pot is harmless compared to other drugs, no doubt. But this discussion started with the cartels. You're not going to get rid of the cartels by legalizing only pot.

As far as I can see we all seem to be in agreement about leaglizing pot it seems.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:13 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:every alcoholic I know started with a glass of milk.


Dude, I burst out laughing. I think I even spit some.

It's those damn White Russians.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:every alcoholic I know started with a glass of milk.


Dude, I burst out laughing. I think I even spit some.

It's those damn White Russians.


Let's not get xenophobic now... :)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:25 pm

Dan Marino, huh. Look at EPP show off.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BigMcK on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:11 pm

Shyster, you have provided thoughtful answers to counter my points. If I ever need a Lawyer...

Is it possible to to coca within our borders? Maybe through genetics and science, not sure.

Like you, I have zero desire to experiment with drugs. But how many people are willing if they knew it wasn't likely to end in criminal problems?

Death is a real possibility of using dangerous drugs even on first use. Joe Blow buys a small amount of bad heroin and dies in front of the store. Joe took the risk seeking the reward. Needle in arm, Joe OD's and drops in front of your family. Are we to feel sorry for Joe getting bad drugs or use him as a learning opportunity of a person who risked it and lost?

Drug charges alone, I would agree. However, drug charges are most often tied to other criminal offenses which are dropped in hopes that the person seeks assistance for their addiction. (my own personal belief)

In the event a parental unit or financially responsible person becomes unemployable due to the effects, are you suggesting that a private insurance entity provide for those that relied on the addicts earning power? It would interesting to see what what the monthly premium would have to be for a company to take on that type of risk for reward. Since addiction is color blind and does not discriminate, your position poses a great question as to how to even set the standard as to risk.

If the goal is to legalize drugs to gain sales tax revenue, where do the proceeds go? Education of the dangers? Other government run social programs? Are local governments able to apply extra fees or boost the amount of sales taxes based on their own local needs? Do I have to cross state lines to find smack cheaper in the next state?

ExPat, I think the passage of medicinal marijuana clinics will continue. Research shows the advantages of certain chemical components to the well being and pain reduction in certain persons. Interesting info about its use: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2012/11/21/271395.htm

Also, someone want to volunteer to take on the nation's largest motorcycle club and tell them you are putting them out of business by legalizing Meth? (allegedly involved in production and distribution -- I have no idea if they are)
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