LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Rylan on Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:15 pm

Leave Israel and Palestine to figure out their own issues. Other nations trying to force a nation into giving up land to form another independent state is major over-stepping IMO.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:38 am

So is it me, or are McCain, Graham and that woman who sounds nervous when she speaks totally off their rockers?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:42 am

Take your pick of the theories:

They would prefer Kerry at State, so are irrationally going after Rice.

They are bizarrely ramping up for the 2016 campaign, by trying to make the Democrats soft on defense.

It was pure incompetence and they know the truth.



The attack was certainly not handled well (to the extent that we assume that it could have been handled better), but I'm going with a mix of the first two.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:20 pm

columbia wrote:Take your pick of the theories:

They would prefer Kerry at State, so are irrationally going after Rice.


Fixt.

Sounds plausable to me.

columbia wrote:They are bizarrely ramping up for the 2016 campaign, by trying to make the Democrats soft on defense.


Huh? Wha? I don't follow this at all. They're attacking Rice because they want to make the Dems appear soft on defense? How's that work? I don't get the connection...


columbia wrote:It was pure incompetence and they know the truth.


What was incompetence? The handling of Rice's Sunday Morning News Show talking points? The administrations response? The mudslinging between the white house and the intelligence community? The entire Obama Administration?

Oh, there's incmpetence on BOTH sides. I just can't get over being angry about how cavalierly the current administration is about lying to the american public.

columbia wrote:The attack was certainly not handled well (to the extent that we assume that it could have been handled better), but I'm going with a mix of the first two.


Which attack? The attack on the embassey? The attack on the American public (through the lies)? The attack on Rice by the GOP?

Personally I'm 100% opposed to Rice's appointment. On principal alone. If she's so willing to mislead the American public, do you think she'd have ANY credibility with foreign dignataries?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:41 pm

Guy stands his ground:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/2 ... lp00000003

His lawyer said that her client acted "responsibly and in self defense."
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:48 pm

The prosecution appears to be taking a much more aggressive stance against this guy, which seems to make sense. It doesn't sound like he was acting in any type of self-defense, whereas Trayvon Martin clearly physically attacked Zimmerman. I highly doubt his defense stands up in trial.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:56 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:The prosecution appears to be taking a much more aggressive stance against this guy, which seems to make sense. It doesn't sound like he was acting in any type of self-defense, whereas Trayvon Martin clearly physically attacked Zimmerman. I highly doubt his defense stands up in trial.


The article was real sketchy on facts, but it certainly sounds like this jerk wasn't in the type of danger that would justify discharging a firearm let alone killing anyone.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:27 pm

he stood his ground against the threatening volume of music coming from another vehicle, if he hadnt defended himself by blowing away an adolescent, he could have ended up with slight eardrum irritation, lasting possibly tens of seconds. he's lucky nobody killed him in retaliation for having such a loud firearm.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:30 pm

Well, it's true that being forced to listen to certain kinds of music would justify a drastic act of self-defense.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:15 pm

columbia wrote:Take your pick of the theories:

They would prefer Kerry at State, so are irrationally going after Rice.

They are bizarrely ramping up for the 2016 campaign, by trying to make the Democrats soft on defense.

I'm inclined to believe it's wholly the former. And it's not so much that they would prefer Kerry at State, as much as they would prefer one less D in the Senate. Personally, I don't see an R winning another Senate race in Mass to replace Kerry (I think Scott Brown was an anomaly of the times), but it's the only endgame that makes any sort of sense as I think about the fervor with which they are going after Rice.

But that's easily countered by simply not nominating Kerry (altho I think he's qualified).

ExPatriatePen wrote:Huh? Wha? I don't follow this at all. They're attacking Rice because they want to make the Dems appear soft on defense? How's that work? I don't get the connection...

They're raising the specter of the al Qaeda boogeyman. Which is even more tenuous than their attacks on Rice.

ExPatriatePen wrote:Personally I'm 100% opposed to Rice's appointment. On principal alone. If she's so willing to mislead the American public, do you think she'd have ANY credibility with foreign dignataries?

Intelligence officials edited talking points on Libya attack

Authorities with the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, in consultation with the CIA, decided to remove the terms "attack," "Al Qaeda" and "terrorism" from unclassified guidance provided to the Obama administration several days after militants attacked the U.S. mission in Benghazi, a senior official said Tuesday.
-----
U.S. intelligence officials supported the administration claims Tuesday, contending that language in the talking points was changed by intelligence officers to protect information that was classified at the time.

To characterize her actions as 'misleading' implies that she somehow knew information that was expressly not given to her and chose to go on her own path.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:48 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Personally I'm 100% opposed to Rice's appointment. On principal alone. If she's so willing to mislead the American public, do you think she'd have ANY credibility with foreign dignataries?

Intelligence officials edited talking points on Libya attack

Authorities with the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, in consultation with the CIA, decided to remove the terms "attack," "Al Qaeda" and "terrorism" from unclassified guidance provided to the Obama administration several days after militants attacked the U.S. mission in Benghazi, a senior official said Tuesday.
-----
U.S. intelligence officials supported the administration claims Tuesday, contending that language in the talking points was changed by intelligence officers to protect information that was classified at the time.

To characterize her actions as 'misleading' implies that she somehow knew information that was expressly not given to her and chose to go on her own path.


Either she knew, in which case she's unqualified on the basis of lying to the American public, or, She didn't know, and wasn't smart enough to ask the pertainent and OBVIOUS questions, in which case she's unqualified.

Either way...
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:52 pm

Maybe she did ask the questions and wasn't given an answer beyond the provided briefing?

If there is a truth/competence issue at play (and there very well might be), going after Rice seems to be barking up the wrong tree.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:58 pm

columbia wrote:Maybe she did ask the questions and wasn't given an answer beyond the provided briefing?

If there is a truth/competence issue at play (and there very well might be), going after Rice seems to be barking up the wrong tree.


If they won't answer a simple question like "Were Terrorists involved?", I think I'd tell them to send someone else out to lie to the american people. But that's just me. I hate being used as someone elses "tool". Maybe career Bureaucrats are more willing to be used as fodder.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:10 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
columbia wrote:Maybe she did ask the questions and wasn't given an answer beyond the provided briefing?

If there is a truth/competence issue at play (and there very well might be), going after Rice seems to be barking up the wrong tree.


If they won't answer a simple question like "Were Terrorists involved?", I think I'd tell them to send someone else out to lie to the american people. But that's just me. I hate being used as someone elses "tool". Maybe career Bureaucrats are more willing to be used as fodder.

RICE: "Is there a possibility that this was a terrorist attack?"

INTEL DUDES: "Our intelligence at this time points to this most likely being related to the video and the protests in Egypt, but the possibility of an al Qaeda link exists. However, we don't know for certain and don't think we should say anything along those lines at this point in time so as to avoid jeopardizing in-theater human intelligence assets and ruining our ability to make a definite connection."

RICE: "Got it."

Why is that so bloody damnable??????
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
columbia wrote:Maybe she did ask the questions and wasn't given an answer beyond the provided briefing?

If there is a truth/competence issue at play (and there very well might be), going after Rice seems to be barking up the wrong tree.


If they won't answer a simple question like "Were Terrorists involved?", I think I'd tell them to send someone else out to lie to the american people. But that's just me. I hate being used as someone elses "tool". Maybe career Bureaucrats are more willing to be used as fodder.

RICE: "Is there a possibility that this was a terrorist attack?"

INTEL DUDES: "Our intelligence at this time points to this most likely being related to the video and the protests in Egypt, but the possibility of an al Qaeda link exists. However, we don't know for certain and don't think we should say anything along those lines at this point in time so as to avoid jeopardizing in-theater human intelligence assets and ruining our ability to make a definite connection."

RICE: "Got it."

Why is that so bloody damnable??????


Because that's not what happened. They knew Terrorists were involved, and Rice said as much. The real issue is that she tried to paint the catalyst of the event as not being driven bby terrorists. She KNEW better:

In an appearance on NBC September 16, Rice said the attack involved "a spontaneous reaction to a video" which had led to an earlier protest in Cairo, Egypt. Asked whether the incident was one of terrorism, she said "opportunistic extremist elements came to the consulate as this was unfolding."

On CNN's "State of the Union," Rice described it as a "horrific incident where some mob was hijacked ultimately by a handful of extremists." Rice appeared on other programs and made similar comments.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Read the full transcript of that appearance, specifically the comment you exerpt:

MS. RICE: Well, let us-- let me tell you the-- the best information we have at present. First of all, there’s an FBI investigation which is ongoing. And we look to that investigation to give us the definitive word as to what transpired. But putting together the best information that we have available to us today our current assessment is that what happened in Benghazi was in fact initially a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired hours before in Cairo, almost a copycat of-- of the demonstrations against our facility in Cairo, which were prompted, of course, by the video. What we think then transpired in Benghazi is that opportunistic extremist elements came to the consulate as this was unfolding. They came with heavy weapons which unfortunately are readily available in post revolutionary Libya. And it escalated into a much more violent episode. Obviously, that’s-- that’s our best judgment now. We’ll await the results of the investigation. And the president has been very clear--we’ll work with the Libyan authorities to bring those responsible to justice.

What evidence is there that she KNEW something different than what she said?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:01 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Read the full transcript of that appearance, specifically the comment you exerpt:

MS. RICE: Well, let us-- let me tell you the-- the best information we have at present. First of all, there’s an FBI investigation which is ongoing. And we look to that investigation to give us the definitive word as to what transpired. But putting together the best information that we have available to us today our current assessment is that what happened in Benghazi was in fact initially a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired hours before in Cairo, almost a copycat of-- of the demonstrations against our facility in Cairo, which were prompted, of course, by the video. What we think then transpired in Benghazi is that opportunistic extremist elements came to the consulate as this was unfolding. They came with heavy weapons which unfortunately are readily available in post revolutionary Libya. And it escalated into a much more violent episode. Obviously, that’s-- that’s our best judgment now. We’ll await the results of the investigation. And the president has been very clear--we’ll work with the Libyan authorities to bring those responsible to justice.

What evidence is there that she KNEW something different than what she said?


It's pretty clear to me Tifosi. If you'd rather believe that the administration was more than willing to admit they were wrong about the "AlQaeda on the run" comments and just didn't know that there had been prior attacks, numerous requests for adiitional security from the embassy, and drones in the air watching the entire event go ahead. I just think if they're that incompetant, they don't deserve my unquestioning support.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:44 pm

Wait, now you're saying that Rice was at the White House watching the drone feed? Maybe with some fresh popcorn, and a cider.

The competency of the Obama Administration is a side concern to McCain, Graham, et al. This witch hunt is specifically about Ambassador Rice and what she knew (with, imo, the goal of making her un-appointable to head up State in the hopes that Obama will nominate Kerry instead and bring a D Senate seat into play before the 2014 mid-terms). And the question I raised in the previous post was directed at that very specific point. What evidence is there that Ambassador Rice KNEW information that she did not share, and was that information - if it existed - something she had been cleared to share?

Are there legitimate questions raised by the way things happened, both before and after the attack? Certainly. Between this and the immediate aftermath of the bin Laden operation it seems that the Administration has a tendency to operate in a bit of a clueless manner at times with particular regard to the prosecution of the War on Terror™. But is the credibility of a unanimously-confirmed ambassador - going so far as to insult her intelligence on national television - one of the things that should be questioned because she had the temerity to repeat what she had been told to repeat as the official position of the government she represents to the world? It's crying wolf, and it smacks of political desperation by an old white man who's about to term out of his committee chairmanship and lose his last grasp of national relevance.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:58 pm

Lindsey Graham has also been targeted as not being conservative enough and wanting to <gasp> compromise with Obama, and likely will have a Republican challenger when he is up for re-election in 2014.

Graham is trying to ramp up his anti-Obama/anti-Democrat stance to the max to appease the disgruntled base of SC's GOP. Some very, very, very, very bitter folks down here about the events of 6 November 2012.

So keep that fact in mind when hearing anything about Lindsey Graham. I also wish he would come out of the closet.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:01 am

The ever-abhorrent erin burnett interviews Julien Assange:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestof ... on-one.cnn

She asks him in the end about Ecuador's notable free-speech issues, as if to bizarrely discredit his asylum. whether you like him or not, a person/jounalist like him should be protected by us instead of running from us. His point about the rule of law in decay in the west is undeniable.

BTW, as an aside for those who don't know; Assange was interviewed in Sweden by prosecutors about having consensual sex w/o a condom. He was told then he was free to leave the country; and it was only after the release of diplomatic cables that they demanded he return to be interviewed in sweden. He has repeatedly agreed to be interviewed by swedish prosecutors in the UK. He has been issued an interpol red notice, which is reserved for top-level terrorists. His attorneys are on no-fly lists. His company, wikileaks, has been illegally blockaded from taking financial donations (while the KKK and other such organizations have no such burden). Neither he, nor his company have been charged with a crime.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:24 am

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclu ... rking-bomb

AP: [ZOMG!!!!] AP EXCLUSIVE [!!!]: GRAPH SUGGESTS IRAN WORKING ON BOMB [!!!!!!!!!!]

The undated diagram that was given to the AP by officials
UNDATED AND UNNAMED!!!!, MY GOD THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE NAMES!!! THEY MUST HAVE SMUGGLED THIS SH** OUT OF IRAN 007-STYLE!!
of a country critical of Iran's atomic program
THIS IS SO FREAKING IMPORTANT THEY CAN'T EVEN TELL US WHERE THIS INFORMATION IS EVEN COMING FROM!!!! HOLY CRAP!!!
allegedly calculating the explosive force of a nuclear weapon


LOOK AT THIS, MAN!! WE'RE ALL GONNA BE SCREWED!!!

Image

Aw crap.

As is, the diagram features a nearly million-fold error.

This diagram does nothing more than indicate either slipshod analysis or an amateurish hoax.

In any case, the level of scientific sophistication needed to produce such a graph corresponds to that typically found in graduate- or advanced undergraduate-level nuclear physics courses.


http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/ ... hic-design
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:06 am

tifosi77 wrote:Wait, now you're saying that Rice was at the White House watching the drone feed? Maybe with some fresh popcorn, and a cider.

The competency of the Obama Administration is a side concern to McCain, Graham, et al. This witch hunt is specifically about Ambassador Rice and what she knew (with, imo, the goal of making her un-appointable to head up State in the hopes that Obama will nominate Kerry instead and bring a D Senate seat into play before the 2014 mid-terms). And the question I raised in the previous post was directed at that very specific point. What evidence is there that Ambassador Rice KNEW information that she did not share, and was that information - if it existed - something she had been cleared to share?

Are there legitimate questions raised by the way things happened, both before and after the attack? Certainly. Between this and the immediate aftermath of the bin Laden operation it seems that the Administration has a tendency to operate in a bit of a clueless manner at times with particular regard to the prosecution of the War on Terror™. But is the credibility of a unanimously-confirmed ambassador - going so far as to insult her intelligence on national television - one of the things that should be questioned because she had the temerity to repeat what she had been told to repeat as the official position of the government she represents to the world? It's crying wolf, and it smacks of political desperation by an old white man who's about to term out of his committee chairmanship and lose his last grasp of national relevance.


I'm rooting for McCain to keep up the fight...this is a comical sideshow by McCain and appeasing my politcal interest that was heightened during the election and hasn't gone away yet. Gives me reason to follow what's going on.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bh on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:43 am

tifosi77 wrote:the War on Terror™
:lol:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:47 am

I didn't see that. Nicely done.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:32 am

That's been my thing for a couple years now. I have Global War on Terror™, War on Terror™ and GWOT®.
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