LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:20 pm

An interesting way to get around the whole birth-control-should-be-paid-by-insurance thing: Bobby Jindal: Birth Control Should Be Over-The-Counter

GaryRissling wrote:My second complaint is that Bigelow and Boal walk on tightrope with regards to separating fact from fiction. Top Gun didn't carry the "this movie is based on actual events" disclaimer that ZDT has. IMO when you put that disclaimer in, producers do have a duty to represent key elements properly, and don't have the luxury of saying, "hey, relax, this is just a fictional piece of entertainment".

Fair play.... I guess I'm just not disquieted by the notion of a fictional portrayal of historical events. I didn't lose my lunch over "Titanic", and don't regard "Miracle" as a documentary of the 1980 Olympic hockey team. I don't think film makers who are not positioning themselves as documentarians have any responsibility whatsoever to present their product as 'fact', and shame on those who would look to a fictional movie (even one based on actual events) for their history education.

steelhammer wrote:Image

I don't necessarily believe this, but that left column could just as easily read "Number of people who protect their own lives and the lives of their loved ones every year"..... and the graphic would look quite a bit different.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:23 pm

MRandall25 wrote:But Tico, if you compare the gun homicide number to the amount of people who legally own guns, you get something like .01% of gun owners use their guns to harm people.

Do we really want to punish 99.99% of people who don't do anything wrong because the other .01% do?


Considering that the gun ownership rate in the U.S. is by far the highest in the world, with some 88 guns per 100 Americans, that .01% represents a significant number of victims. So, yes, I do want to make it harder to own a gun than to drive a car.
Last edited by Tico Rick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tico Rick
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,866
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Disco is dead.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:23 pm

Like someone else said before, making heroin illegal doesn't make it impossible to get it. Someone that wants to do something like this is going to find the guns regardless. CT has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country, but this still happened. The answer to stop these type of attacks does not end with tougher gun control alone.
Sam's Drunk Dog
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,573
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:31 pm
Location: Shutter Island

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:27 pm

They weren't even the shooter's guns, if I read the stories correctly.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:27 pm

But Tico, if you compare the gun homicide number to the amount of people who legally own guns, you get something like .01% of gun owners use their guns to harm people.

Do we really want to punish 99.99% of people who don't do anything wrong because the other .01% do?
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:37 pm

One can drive from Newtown to four different states in two hours or less. And in this case, all the attacker had to do was pick up his mom's guns. Making it harder to acquire weapons does not solve the problem, but if it can significantly cut down gun-related homicides.

Basically, more guns means more homicide:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

And states with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/
Tico Rick
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,866
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Disco is dead.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:38 pm

MRandall25 wrote:They weren't even the shooter's guns, if I read the stories correctly.

They were his moms guns (the kindergarten teacher).

I'd say she paid a high price for the priveledge of owning them... Just say'n
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ulf on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:41 pm

Doesn't CT have some of the stricter gun laws?
ulf
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,877
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:41 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:42 pm

Tico Rick wrote:One can drive from Newtown to four different states in two hours or less.


Mass, RI, NY, NJ

Hell if you increase it to three hours you can add a half dozen more states to the list.

But let's be serious... It's not about .22 rifles. It's about assault weapons.

Big difference.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ulf on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:46 pm

Tico Rick wrote:Some in the other thread are saying that we shouldn’t politicize this tragedy by bringing up gun control. Bull. That’s an easy out for the pro-gun side; what they’re really saying is “let’s leave well enough alone.” Some in the other thread are stating that the shooting is not a gun control issue. Bull. If this event is not about the easy availability of guns in this country, what is?

I don't think it's a pro-gun thing. President Obama even said as much yesterday, and I wouldn't quite say he's in bed with the NRA. I see it as more of a respect thing.
ulf
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,877
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:41 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:47 pm

Tico Rick wrote:Some in the other thread are saying that we shouldn’t politicize this tragedy by bringing up gun control. Bull. That’s an easy out for the pro-gun side; what they’re really saying is “let’s leave well enough alone.” Some in the other thread are stating that the shooting is not a gun control issue. Bull. If this event is not about the easy availability of guns in this country, what is?

The reason for not having the discussion now, in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy, is because this is a highly emotional time. And people - especially politicians - do not act rationally when their emotions are up.

Basing legislation on emotion rather than pragmatism is what gets you laws like the USA PATRIOT Act, which was proposed, drafted, passed, and signed into law 45 days after September 11th. Our grandchildren will still be living down the after affects of that nonsense, and it was passed in a huff as a knee-jerk response.

Tico Rick wrote:The NRA and their supporters always cite the Second Amendment right “to keep and bear arms.” But they conveniently forget the “well regulated Militia” part of that amendment. The Supreme Court unanimously ruled in United States v. Miller (1939) that citizens do not have a right to bear arms if they are not part of a well-regulated militia. It’s time for us to start regulating. Or at least let 5-year-olds start packing heat.

That's not what is said in Miller. Rather, the existence of prohibitions on certain types of arms is not violative of the 2nd Amendment, provided that those prohibited arms are not in the common use of a 'militia' of the day. Subsequent SCOTUS case law made it very clear that Miller was quite specifically limited to the legitimacy of a ban on sawed-off shotguns.

That said, I do agree that (as drafted) the 2nd Amendment was meant to couch the bearing of arms in the context of militia service. The Framers were fearful of a tyrannical national government or sovereign lording over them, and the mechanism most feared in this regard was the standing army. Look at how the Constitution limits the standing army; the Congress was forbidden from appropriating funds for a standing army for a period of more than two years (imagine that!), the Bill of Rights contains a prohibition on the quartering of national troops in private residences. And the main institutional bulwark against this tyrannical standing army was not an armed citizenry standing in defiance.... it was the state militias. To that end, militia service was compulsory for able-bodied males between certain ages. And when called for militia service, you were expected to bring your own gun with you - and to this end, early legislation mandated gun ownership by those such able-bodied males. (imagine that!)

Over time, the Court has evolved its position on the 2nd Amendment to its current position that it protects an individual right bear arms for the purpose of self defense.

Looking at the mechanism rather than at the actor completely misses the point. The gun is a tool, and is completely useless and harmless unless and until it is in the hands of a human. Making guns harder to obtain legally to address gun crime is like making cars harder to buy to address drunk driving.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shmenguin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:17 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Like someone else said before, making heroin illegal doesn't make it impossible to get it. Someone that wants to do something like this is going to find the guns regardless. CT has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country, but this still happened. The answer to stop these type of attacks does not end with tougher gun control alone.


There are arguments to be made on both sides here but comparing enforcement of guns to drugs isn't one of them. A drug user's ultimate motive is to not posess drugs but to consume them. That makes law enforcement a little tricky to say the least. If someone's owning a gun illegally, posession is perpetual. The risk of being busted is enough of a stigma to separate them from say, heroin addicts.
shmenguin
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 25,067
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:27 pm

I know passing laws makes people feel better, but the statistics do not back up the rational that more gun laws = less gun deaths.

I see several of us posted at the same time, I concur 100% with Tifosi.
Last edited by Alejandro Rojas on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alejandro Rojas
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:08 pm
Location: Aloha Means Goodbye

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:27 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Looking at the mechanism rather than at the actor completely misses the point. The gun is a tool, and is completely useless and harmless unless and until it is in the hands of a human. Making guns harder to obtain legally to address gun crime is like making cars harder to buy to address drunk driving.


I would love to be able to own a bazooka, and using your logic, I should be able to. After all, a bazooka is merely a tool. Bazookas don't kill people, people kill people.

The problem with guns is that they are too clean; they are too easy to grab and do the job in an instant of rage. That's why they need to be more strictly regulated. Suppose Jovan Belcher had attacked his wife with a knife rather than shot her with a gun. Do you think after a cut or two, with blood gushing and all, he would have continued until his wife was dead, and then stabbed himself to death? Some people would, but there are a lot of reasonable people who would realize what they are doing when they see blood, and come to their senses.

So far, Sandy Hook does not seem to be about someone acting in a fit of rage, but about the easy availability of weapons to a deranged person. Should we try to make it harder to get weapons? Hell, yes.
Tico Rick
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,866
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Disco is dead.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:30 pm

Alejandro Rojas wrote:I know passing laws makes people feel better, but the statistics do not back up the rational that more gun laws = less gun deaths.


That is factually incorrect.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/
Tico Rick
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,866
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Disco is dead.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:31 pm

I once worked with crime scene units. Very, very, rarely in rage killings with sharp objects did the person stop after a couple blows.
Alejandro Rojas
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:08 pm
Location: Aloha Means Goodbye

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:39 pm

Tico Rick wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:I know passing laws makes people feel better, but the statistics do not back up the rational that more gun laws = less gun deaths.


That is factually incorrect.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/


Correlation =/= causation.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Also, Israel has similar gun buying laws and ownership % the US does, along with concealed carry, but the rate of homicide by gun is significantly lower.

It's not solely a gun problem. It's a people and society problem.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shmenguin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm

You can't question those stats and believe in the stats that tell the other side of the story. This is soft science we're talking about here.
shmenguin
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 25,067
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shmenguin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:48 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Also, Israel has similar gun buying laws and ownership % the US does, along with concealed carry, but the rate of homicide by gun is significantly lower.

It's not solely a gun problem. It's a people and society problem.


Comparing Israel to the US? Good grief. Was their no data available for Martians?
shmenguin
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 25,067
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:52 pm

shmenguin wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Also, Israel has similar gun buying laws and ownership % the US does, along with concealed carry, but the rate of homicide by gun is significantly lower.

It's not solely a gun problem. It's a people and society problem.


Comparing Israel to the US? Good grief. Was their no data available for Martians?


It's the same for Switzerland. Like I said, it's just as much, if not more, a people and society problem than it is a gun problem.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby mac5155 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:58 pm

MWB wrote:
columbia wrote:If a school is so potentially dangerous, I would think that a police officer would be the preferred solution for security.


I agree. I don't know that it's really the way to go, but if you're going to add guns to school, I'd rather it be someone in a professional capacity.

The thing that seems to happen in all these cases is the shooter ends up killing himself in the end. So is having the threat of being shot really going to be a deterrent for someone who wants that to be the end result anyway?


Why do they always seem to wear bulletproof vests then? Just to prolong the attack?
mac5155
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 48,726
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:06 pm
Location: governor of Fayettenam

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:08 pm

mac5155 wrote:Why do they always seem to wear bulletproof vests then? Just to prolong the attack?


I remember reading somewhere awhile back that they want to go out in a blaze of glory, so to speak, so the world will forever remember their insignificant little lives. I guess in their twisted minds, the higher the casualty number, the better.
Tico Rick
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,866
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Disco is dead.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:09 pm

Tico Rick wrote:
mac5155 wrote:Why do they always seem to wear bulletproof vests then? Just to prolong the attack?


I remember reading somewhere awhile back that they want to go out in a blaze of glory, so to speak, so the world will forever remember their insignificant little lives. I guess in their twisted minds, the higher the casualty number, the better.


Which is why the media needs to stop mentioning shooters.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:11 pm

http://www.france24.com/en/20121206-tintin-congo-not-racist-belgian-court-rules

:face:

While I do not agree with the bid to ban the book (censorship = bad), to come to the conclusion that Tintin in the Congo is not racist is a tough pill to swallow.
Last edited by Gaucho on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 44,344
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Ignoranti

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


e-mail