LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:56 am

shafnutz05 wrote:
Just thought this needed to be repeated. I think tif makes a very eloquent case here as to why gun owners take such offense to being demonized like this.


I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people who want restrictions or bans on guns are trying to demonize law-abiding citizens who do carry firearms. Perhaps people at the extremes may do this, but that's not worth discussing.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby mac5155 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:00 am

pfim wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:
Just thought this needed to be repeated. I think tif makes a very eloquent case here as to why gun owners take such offense to being demonized like this.


I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people who want restrictions or bans on guns are trying to demonize law-abiding citizens who do carry firearms. Perhaps people at the extremes may do this, but that's not worth discussing.


So then let's hear something that doesnt demonize law abiding citizens but does restrict criminals from getting them.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:01 am

pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:
pfim wrote:
mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?


1) Shyster, a law abiding citizen, will be precluded from owning a 30 round clip (should one exist).

2) The maniac will purchase the now illegal 30 round clip (should one exist) illegally.


So to relate this to a real life situation, the 20 year old loser maniac who shot up the school in Newtown would have gone to the black market to purchase a 30 round clip that probably doesn't exist?

Doesn't seem plausible.


Well in effect that is exactly what he did.

1) He attempted to purchase a weapon on his own, legally, and was unable to do so.

2) He murdered his mother, stole her weapons, and then shot up the kids.

3) He had to commit several felonies before he even went to the school.

4) The "should one exist" comment is merely because I don't know enough about guns to know if there is actually a 30 round clip.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 am

NY's new 7 round restriction did not have an LEO exception. Nice.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby mac5155 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 am

pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:
pfim wrote:
mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?


1) Shyster, a law abiding citizen, will be precluded from owning a 30 round clip (should one exist).

2) The maniac will purchase the now illegal 30 round clip (should one exist) illegally.


So to relate this to a real life situation, the 20 year old loser maniac who shot up the school in Newtown would have gone to the black market to purchase a 30 round clip that probably doesn't exist?

Doesn't seem plausible.


Just because they are made illegal doesnt mean they will cease to exist. Also, he already had the gun. There's no way to track transfer/sale of a 30 round magazine.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby IamtheWaris on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 am

pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:
pfim wrote:
mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?


1) Shyster, a law abiding citizen, will be precluded from owning a 30 round clip (should one exist).

2) The maniac will purchase the now illegal 30 round clip (should one exist) illegally.


So to relate this to a real life situation, the 20 year old loser maniac who shot up the school in Newtown would have gone to the black market to purchase a 30 round clip that probably doesn't exist?

Doesn't seem plausible.



Yeah, 20 year old's never go to the black market to purchase something illegal.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:03 am

mac5155 wrote:
pfim wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:
Just thought this needed to be repeated. I think tif makes a very eloquent case here as to why gun owners take such offense to being demonized like this.


I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people who want restrictions or bans on guns are trying to demonize law-abiding citizens who do carry firearms. Perhaps people at the extremes may do this, but that's not worth discussing.


So then let's hear something that doesnt demonize law abiding citizens but does restrict criminals from getting them.


Restricting gun sales to law-abiding citizens doesn't equal demonizing them. I don't agree with your premise even a little.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:06 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:
pfim wrote:
mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?


1) Shyster, a law abiding citizen, will be precluded from owning a 30 round clip (should one exist).

2) The maniac will purchase the now illegal 30 round clip (should one exist) illegally.


So to relate this to a real life situation, the 20 year old loser maniac who shot up the school in Newtown would have gone to the black market to purchase a 30 round clip that probably doesn't exist?

Doesn't seem plausible.


Well in effect that is exactly what he did.

1) He attempted to purchase a weapon on his own, legally, and was unable to do so.

2) He murdered his mother, stole her weapons, and then shot up the kids.

3) He had to commit several felonies before he even went to the school.

4) The "should one exist" comment is merely because I don't know enough about guns to know if there is actually a 30 round clip.


There is no such thing as a 30 round clip
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:06 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
Well in effect that is exactly what he did.

1) He attempted to purchase a weapon on his own, legally, and was unable to do so.

2) He murdered his mother, stole her weapons, and then shot up the kids.

3) He had to commit several felonies before he even went to the school.

4) The "should one exist" comment is merely because I don't know enough about guns to know if there is actually a 30 round clip.


So he couldn't get one legally (perhaps we're past the 30 round clip discussion here), and had to steal them from a law-abiding citizen who did have them?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby mac5155 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:06 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
4) The "should one exist" comment is merely because I don't know enough about guns to know if there is actually a 30 round clip.


Most ARs come with a 10 round magazine but they are easily modifiable to accept 30 rounds. Basically just use 1/3 of the magazine and plastic inserts on the rest of it.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:08 am

pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:
Well in effect that is exactly what he did.

1) He attempted to purchase a weapon on his own, legally, and was unable to do so.

2) He murdered his mother, stole her weapons, and then shot up the kids.

3) He had to commit several felonies before he even went to the school.

4) The "should one exist" comment is merely because I don't know enough about guns to know if there is actually a 30 round clip.


So he couldn't get one legally (perhaps we're past the 30 round clip discussion here), and had to steal them from a law-abiding citizen who did have them?


Yes, that is exactly what happened. He was denied the ability to purchase one legally by the good folks at Dick's Sporting Goods and then went and stole them from a law-abiding citizen, his mother.

Now should we make it illegal for people to legally own guns if there is a person living in their home that is unable to legally own one?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
Yes, that is exactly what happened. He was denied the ability to purchase one legally by the good folks at Dick's Sporting Goods and then went and stole them from a law-abiding citizen, his mother.

Now should we make it illegal for people to legally own guns if there is a person living in their home that is unable to legally own one?


Well, I'm not entirely sure anyone should own guns. Though we're not at that point yet and it's beside the point I'm trying to make.

The point to my line of questioning is that this isn't personal, no one is saying that Shyster and mac aren't responsible with their guns. Only that not everyone is like Shyster and mac.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 am

pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:
Yes, that is exactly what happened. He was denied the ability to purchase one legally by the good folks at Dick's Sporting Goods and then went and stole them from a law-abiding citizen, his mother.

Now should we make it illegal for people to legally own guns if there is a person living in their home that is unable to legally own one?


Well, I'm not entirely sure anyone should own guns. Though we're not at that point yet and it's beside the point I'm trying to make.

The point to my line of questioning is that this isn't personal, no one is saying that Shyster and mac aren't responsible with their guns. Only that not everyone is like Shyster and mac.


How is that besides the point you are making?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:18 am

shafnutz05 wrote:
columbia wrote:Are you cool with the guy next door having a bazooka? Maybe a tank or an armed drone patrolling the neighborhood?


Of course not. That would infringe on the rights of other people living in the neighborhood. Unlike a legally owned gun safely stored in the guy's house.


Why can't I have a legally owned bazooka safely stored in my house? If the feds are coming for me I need more than a gun.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:21 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
How is that besides the point you are making?


This is the my original reply to your post: "I doubt the purpose of the proposal is to take away 30 round clips from Shyster."

The point is that no one is saying that Shyster (and others like him) is irresponsible or the root cause of the situation.

The thought that "I'm responsible so I shouldn't have this 'right' taken away from me" doesn't take into account all of the stakeholders involved.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:22 am

Factorial wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:
columbia wrote:Are you cool with the guy next door having a bazooka? Maybe a tank or an armed drone patrolling the neighborhood?


Of course not. That would infringe on the rights of other people living in the neighborhood. Unlike a legally owned gun safely stored in the guy's house.


Why can't I have a legally owned bazooka safely stored in my house? If the feds are coming for me I need more than a gun.


Seems logical to me, though I think you'll need more firepower if the feds are coming.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:25 am

Factorial wrote:
Why can't I have a legally owned bazooka safely stored in my house? If the feds are coming for me I need more than a gun.


You can. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/impo ... evice.html

Why would I worry if you had one of those? Do you plan on committing a crime? And its not necessarily about the feds. Natural disaster, economic collapse, global pandemic, climate shift. All good reasons to want to protect yourself.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby mac5155 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:31 am

yeah, ive shot an SKS before that has a gas propelled grenade you can stick in the end. kinda fun :pop:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:45 am

pittsoccer33 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Why can't I have a legally owned bazooka safely stored in my house? If the feds are coming for me I need more than a gun.


You can. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/impo ... evice.html

Why would I worry if you had one of those? Do you plan on committing a crime? And its not necessarily about the feds. Natural disaster, economic collapse, global pandemic, climate shift. All good reasons to want to protect yourself.


I'm going build one of these:



No one will come near my house.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:23 pm

Image

This guy might argue with that
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby yubb on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:24 pm

Would you consider a militia "well regulated" if they didn't have semi automatic rifles in this day? I wouldn't. And I'd certainly prefer to be backed by the militia with semi-automatic firearms.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:28 pm

It just surprises me that people think it is so far fetched that a major global crisis would completely disrupt our way of life. Many of them are the same people who say we are running out of oil, destroying to the ozone, and melting the polar caps.

Well say they're right, and those things happen, destroying major coastal cities and completely disrupting the delivery of utilities and food. Then what? We saw the police in New Orleans abandon their posts and join in rioting. I don't mean to besmirch law enforcement, but I don't want to rely on them in a real crisis.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:31 pm

Mr. President, I rise today to talk about America's debt problem. The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies.

Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is ''trillion'' with a ''T.'' That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President's budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.

Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we'll spend on Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. . . .

Our debt also matters internationally. My friend, the ranking member of the Senate Budget Committee, likes to remind us that it took 42 Presidents 224 years to run up only $1 trillion of foreign-held debt. This administration did more than that in just 5 years. Now, there is nothing wrong with borrowing from foreign countries. But we must remember that the more we depend on foreign nations to lend us money, the more our economic security is tied to the whims of foreign leaders whose interests might not be aligned with ours.

Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ''the buck stops here.'' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby yubb on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:34 pm

I'd guess that was a Ron Paul quote, but he wouldn't say "there's nothing wrong with borrowing from foreign countries."
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:50 pm

Isn't quoting Obama racist?
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