LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:55 pm

redwill wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:Visualization of every drone strike in Pakistan since 2004.

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/


The conclusion seems to be that child and civilian deaths are dramatically decreasing relative to the overall deaths. That's a positive, right? "Other" is taking off.

Frankly, I'm most upset that a horse was apparently killed in a recent attack.


Always look on the bright side of life.

What strikes me most is the amount of attacks and deaths that have occurred since Obama won the peace prize...
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:57 pm

DelPen wrote:Prop 8 should stand, whether or not you think ballot initiatives should be constitutional is another issue.

DOMA should be overturned, it's unconstitutional. If a state will marry two people that license needs to be recognized nationwide juts like a drivers license. And this should also apply to other things like a concealed weapons permit.

This is more about State's rights in both cases, neither has anything really to do about deciding for or against gay marriage.

The CA constitution prohibits the use of ballot initiatives to revoke rights that have been recognized legislatively.... which is precisely what Prop 8 did. Without even getting to the substantive questions about equal rights, it's structurally impermissible.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:07 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:My Facebook wall is absolutely buried by those red equal sign thingies that people are posting.


I just changed mine to a greater than (...or maybe it's less than) symbol. <

Can't wait for people to think it means something political....


I was going to do an 11, or perhaps a KONY 2012 with 2012 scratched out and 2013 written in.

Done on MS Paint, of course.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:10 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
DelPen wrote:Prop 8 should stand, whether or not you think ballot initiatives should be constitutional is another issue.

DOMA should be overturned, it's unconstitutional. If a state will marry two people that license needs to be recognized nationwide juts like a drivers license. And this should also apply to other things like a concealed weapons permit.

This is more about State's rights in both cases, neither has anything really to do about deciding for or against gay marriage.

The CA constitution prohibits the use of ballot initiatives to revoke rights that have been recognized legislatively.... which is precisely what Prop 8 did. Without even getting to the substantive questions about equal rights, it's structurally impermissible.


If domestic partnerships carry the same privileges legally as a union called a marriage does there is no violation of anyone's rights.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:11 pm

redwill wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:Visualization of every drone strike in Pakistan since 2004.

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/


The conclusion seems to be that child and civilian deaths are dramatically decreasing relative to the overall deaths. That's a positive, right? "Other" is taking off.

Frankly, I'm most upset that a horse was apparently killed in a recent attack.


My issue is that we're assuming that some standard has been met which makes the lives of these people forfeit.
Yet whatever standards there are fall well short of anything which can believed to be "due process" as there is no transparency.

To believe that this policy is acceptable is to either deny the existence unalienable rights, or it is to accept that these are sub-humans who are not endowed with the same rights as we are.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:11 pm

DelPen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
DelPen wrote:Prop 8 should stand, whether or not you think ballot initiatives should be constitutional is another issue.

DOMA should be overturned, it's unconstitutional. If a state will marry two people that license needs to be recognized nationwide juts like a drivers license. And this should also apply to other things like a concealed weapons permit.

This is more about State's rights in both cases, neither has anything really to do about deciding for or against gay marriage.

The CA constitution prohibits the use of ballot initiatives to revoke rights that have been recognized legislatively.... which is precisely what Prop 8 did. Without even getting to the substantive questions about equal rights, it's structurally impermissible.


If domestic partnerships carry the same privileges legally as a union called a marriage does there is no violation of anyone's rights.


Well, they don't.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:15 pm

columbia wrote:
DelPen wrote:
If domestic partnerships carry the same privileges legally as a union called a marriage does there is no violation of anyone's rights.


Well, they don't.


Tell me how the are different in CA? not being sarcastic, where's the difference.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:18 pm

Because the federal government doesn't recognize gay marriage or civil unions.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:23 pm

columbia wrote:Because the federal government doesn't recognize gay marriage or civil unions.


So the only impact is a federal job in CA with benefits not being allowed to be extended? That's why DOMA is unconstitutional. But where is the inequality under the law in Prop 8 in CA?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:28 pm

GaryRissling wrote:To believe that this policy is acceptable is to either deny the existence unalienable rights, or it is to accept that these are sub-humans who are not endowed with the same rights as we are.


I don't think that any policy maker ever took seriously the idea that EVERY human has unalienable rights. Or if he/she did it was only in the context of his/her own society.

"Do not kill" says the Bible. But who denies the right to kill on the battlefield?

One may prattle on about "declared wars" or "legal combatants," blah, blah. It didn't stop us (or others) from killing whomever we (or they) thought it righteous to kill in pursuit of societal interests. And who would argue with that, anthropologically-speaking? A society has the right to protect its existence, yes?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:34 pm

redwill wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:To believe that this policy is acceptable is to either deny the existence unalienable rights, or it is to accept that these are sub-humans who are not endowed with the same rights as we are.


I don't think that any policy maker ever took seriously the idea that EVERY human has unalienable rights. Or if he/she did it was only in the context of his/her own society.

"Do not kill" says the Bible. But who denies the right to kill on the battlefield?

One may prattle on about "declared wars" or "legal combatants," blah, blah. It didn't stop us (or others) from killing whomever we (or they) thought it righteous to kill in pursuit of societal interests. And who would argue with that, anthropologically-speaking? A society has the right to protect its existence, yes?


I knew we were in a regressive political culture, but I never thought I'd ever hear someone argue that human rights don't exist. Jesus.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:39 pm

GaryRissling wrote:I knew we were in a regressive political culture, but I never thought I'd ever hear someone argue that human rights don't exist. Jesus.


Well, maybe that's a discussion that needs to be had. Where do these alleged human rights come from?

I suppose I'm inclined to say that they are granted to members of a society via a social contract. Such a social contract in the USA does not grant similar rights to Pakistanis.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:58 pm

redwill wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:I knew we were in a regressive political culture, but I never thought I'd ever hear someone argue that human rights don't exist. Jesus.


Well, maybe that's a discussion that needs to be had. Where do these alleged human rights come from?

I suppose I'm inclined to say that they are granted to members of a society via a social contract. Such a social contract in the USA does not grant similar rights to Pakistanis.


Our separation from England was predicated on the belief that rights are inherent to our nature as man. I would go further and say all of what we know of western civilization is predicated on that belief as it is what was codified into the Magna Carta as well as our founding documents. It is the premise which brought about "due process" so that the king/ruler couldn't arbitrarily apply his own subjective judgement behind closed doors. You are advocating a devolution into a pre-magna carta (rogue) non-"western" civilization.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:26 pm

redwill wrote:I suppose I'm inclined to say that they are granted to members of a society via a social contract. Such a social contract in the USA does not grant similar rights to Pakistanis.

Wow. That is like wearing Teflon shoes to traverse a slope made of wet ice and canola oil. One might be inclined to call that 'slippery'.

Aside from the moral compunction that should be self-evident in the notion of dispatching flying killer robots to murder untold thousands of people half a world away, I think it is vitally important to be aware of the certitude that someday - sooner rather than later - the U.S. will not possess a monopoly on this technology. And we're supposed to be the 'good guys'..... what happens when the 'bad guys' have their own flying killer robots?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:27 pm

GaryRissling wrote:Our separation from England was predicated on the belief that rights are inherent to our nature as man. I would go further and say all of what we know of western civilization is predicated on that belief as it is what was codified into the Magna Carta as well as our founding documents. It is the premise which brought about "due process" so that the king/ruler couldn't arbitrarily apply his own subjective judgement behind closed doors.


Belief does not imply truth. I don't care what people at the time of our separation from England "believed." They also happened to believe that enslavement of Africans was justified. So poo-poo. They didn't really believe in the inherent rights of man. You must admit that. They had no justification and were only looking for words to make themselves look good. They were cynically looking for someone to agree with us and support our coup d'etat.

GaryRissling wrote:You are advocating a devolution into a pre-magna carta (rogue) non-"western" civilization


I'm not sure what I'm advocating, other than an end to self-serving dissembling lies. Our society does what is necessary to promote and preserve itself. Period.

I suppose we'd agree on a huge list of things that the USA has done in its history that are contrary to its easily-mimed "ideals." I just don't get why you're so pumped on this latest episode of hypocrisy.

The USA is no different than any other society in the history of the world. It does what it does to preserve itself.

Laugh at it. Mock it. Don't try to change it. Be happy that you got what you got and you aren't under them drone strikes.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:28 pm

tifosi77 wrote:... what happens when the 'bad guys' have their own flying killer robots?


We suffer the same fate. What's your point?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:31 pm

DelPen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
DelPen wrote:Prop 8 should stand, whether or not you think ballot initiatives should be constitutional is another issue.

DOMA should be overturned, it's unconstitutional. If a state will marry two people that license needs to be recognized nationwide juts like a drivers license. And this should also apply to other things like a concealed weapons permit.

This is more about State's rights in both cases, neither has anything really to do about deciding for or against gay marriage.

The CA constitution prohibits the use of ballot initiatives to revoke rights that have been recognized legislatively.... which is precisely what Prop 8 did. Without even getting to the substantive questions about equal rights, it's structurally impermissible.


If domestic partnerships carry the same privileges legally as a union called a marriage does there is no violation of anyone's rights.

The CA legislature recognized marriage rights of same-sex couples. 144 days later, Prop 8 was passed to strip those rights away. That action is prohibited by the CA constitution. Prop 8 never should have been granted a spot on the ballot in the first place, and it has nothing to do with this specific issue.

But by arguing for the inherent sameness of domestic partnerships and marriage, you are essentially saying that the Court got it wrong in Brown v Board of Education when they overruled the notion of 'separate but equal'.

Put it this way: in your own life, would you rather be domestically partnered? Or married? And why? I'm not even a religious person, but the idea of 'domestic partnership' sounds like what you call a broken marriage that's maintained simply for the sake of the kids. It isn't truly equal. For if it was truly equal...... there'd be no need for it.

DelPen wrote:Tell me how the are different in CA? not being sarcastic, where's the difference.

Because they are not marriages. They create a class of people who can cannot realize from the societal benefits of being married. (Never mind the legal ones; not all domestic partnerships give the exact same rights and privileges as marriage)

Also, domestic partnerships aren't universally portable.
Last edited by tifosi77 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:32 pm

ban all marriages and buy everybody a drone. fair?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:16 pm

what happens when the 'bad guys' have their own flying killer robots?


I imagine we'll arm our drones with air to air weapons to shoot them down. then they'll do the same. we wont have armies anymore, just aerial defense batteries and drones. it will take massive numbers of them to overwhelm someone militarily, and pretty soon we'll have so many god damn drones in the sky we'll need electromagnetic force fields around each country. some will fail, some will be countered by defense mechanisms in the drones themselves, and mass annihilation will occur. the few surviving cities with upgraded fields will turtle waiting for the madness to die down, and possibly the grass to have a few less rads coming from it, which will take thousands of years. the shielded cities will become overcrowded, and an age limit will be set. once you pass the age, you will be sent to carousel for renewal, or you can take a chance and try to escape to sanctuary, which of course wont exist.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:23 pm

If same-sex couples want to enter into a relationship and have the government recognize that as a marriage, I believe they should be free to do so. My only reservation is that purely private persons and businesses should have the ability, if they wish, to decline to adopt that definition and not be hammered by so-called discrimination laws.*


*To be clear, yes, Shyster believes that private persons and businesses should be able to discriminate. Yes, even on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, and all of the other bases that our laws declare “bad.” Search this thread for my name and “discrimination” if you want to see repeated discussions of that topic.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:27 pm

Some of those posts are from 1377, as I recall.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Willie Kool on Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:22 pm

Kaizer wrote:the shielded cities will become overcrowded, and an age limit will be set. once you pass the age, you will be sent to carousel for renewal

:thumb:
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:37 pm

redwill wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:... what happens when the 'bad guys' have their own flying killer robots?


We suffer the same fate. What's your point?

When we suffer the same fate, we now have no ground on which to stand to claim outrage.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:57 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
redwill wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:... what happens when the 'bad guys' have their own flying killer robots?


We suffer the same fate. What's your point?

When we suffer the same fate, we now have no ground on which to stand to claim outrage.


huh, sort of sounds like when the russians destroyed berlin.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:04 am

Willie Kool wrote:
Kaizer wrote:the shielded cities will become overcrowded, and an age limit will be set. once you pass the age, you will be sent to carousel for renewal

:thumb:
Spoiler:
Image


This assumes the existence of Peter Ustinov. I'm not sure, but I think he was just a mad fantasy of mine.
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