LGP Political Discussion Thread

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:50 pm

Oh, and Glenn's assertion that Americans "lack empathy" makes me want to vomit. While I agree with him that Americans are blissfully ignorant of the atrocities we commit overseas, Americans are by and large a very empathetic people.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 60,559
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby obhave on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:00 pm

I was just about to post that article.

"Regardless of your views of justification and intent: whatever rage you're feeling toward the perpetrator of this Boston attack, that's the rage in sustained form that people across the world feel toward the US for killing innocent people in their countries. Whatever sadness you feel for yesterday's victims, the same level of sadness is warranted for the innocent people whose lives are ended by American bombs. However profound a loss you recognize the parents and family members of these victims to have suffered, that's the same loss experienced by victims of US violence. It's natural that it won't be felt as intensely when the victims are far away and mostly invisible, but applying these reactions to those acts of US aggression would go a long way toward better understanding what they are and the outcomes they generate."

This is something I completely agree with.

I think if you look at twitter, you will see many people jumping on the IT WAS THE MUSLIMS train. Or even, THOSE DAMN NORTH KOREANS! -yes, I even saw this. But I agree, from what I saw most people that were not the New York Post did not jump to conclusion that it was Islamic radicals.
obhave
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,918
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:56 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:05 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Oh, and Glenn's assertion that Americans "lack empathy" makes me want to vomit. While I agree with him that Americans are blissfully ignorant of the atrocities we commit overseas, Americans are by and large a very empathetic people.


Yes, we are an extremely empathetic people when it comes to natural catastrophes and the like. We are are not empathetic in the least when it comes to Arabs in general; and we are highly defensive of our military and government to the point of irrationality when it comes to the roles they have been playing in the ME since WWII. It's more cognitive dissonance than blissful ignorance.
GaryRissling
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,635
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:10 pm

I'm closer to thinking the bombing was an inside job by some crazy american, but I guess we'll see.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,340
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Geezer on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:38 pm

Ricin sent to Republican senator.
Geezer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,776
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:24 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby obhave on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:46 pm

Geezer wrote:Ricin sent to Republican senator.

Who?
obhave
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,918
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:56 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Geezer on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:56 pm

obhave wrote:
Geezer wrote:Ricin sent to Republican senator.

Who?

Mississippi senator, letter was intercepted
Geezer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,776
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:24 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby npv708 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:31 pm

Roger Wicker.
npv708
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 23,173
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:54 pm

Field test positive, two other tests were negative and inconclusive. Wouldn't get all worked up just yet over this.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 36,388
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm

Damien Walter ‏@damiengwalter 15 Apr
Thatcher's funeral cost = £10 million. Latest 'unavoidable' cuts to Arts Council England = £11.6 million.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 44,371
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Ignoranti

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:14 am

stinky wrote:what ever powers you grant Obama today, do you grant and trust Dick Cheney tomorrow?


That's an excellent point. Dick Cheney is slimy. Eww.

stinky wrote:I cant off the top of my head think of a time that a central government has voluntarily and without conflict rolled back its powers which at one time had been granted to them by the people under the guise of safety of its citizens.


Without bothering (read: too lazy) to look up specifics, what about powers -- granted during wars -- which are no longer in effect, like suspension of habeas corpus, media censorship, sedition acts, labor controls? What about the end of the draft? What about the government not renewing the 1994 assault weapons ban?

On the economic front, what about wartime rationing? What about taxation levels which during WWII approached 90% for the richest folks? Those tax levels were willingly lowered by the government and no longer exist (unless you listen to EPP.)

On the international front, how about the fact that there are any number of nations that the US has taken over yet returned control of the nation to the local powers? Granted, the nation returned was inevitably in a shambles, but if you're talking historically, it's pretty astounding how many nations the US has conquered and then encouraged self-determination. Surely it was for the US's own purposes, but this is the US government willingly surrendering control.

Next, in a slightly different yet related category are the examples of the US government willingly giving up power and control over its own citizens. Miranda v. Arizona comes to mind. The Civil Rights Act. Anti-discrimination acts. I'm sure there are many others related to free speech, freedom of assembly, illegal search and seizure, cruel and inhuman treatment, etc. I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm sure a lawyer or two could provide a few examples on this side of the argument. What about deregulation of businesses, of Wall Street, etc.?

stinky wrote:If we as population continue to cede the liberties and freedoms granted to us in the name of safety, I truly fear for the quality of life for my children. Will they be safe, maybe, will they have to check in with a government agency once a week while being tracked 24 / 7 with a GPS microchip under their mandatory body armor, maybe? What a blissful life, the only thing they will have to worry about is drones falling on their head.


A bit reactionary, don't you think? In your crowd there seems to be nothing between Atlas Shrugged and the Gestapo run amok.
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby stinky on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:52 am

redwill wrote:Without bothering (read: too lazy) to look up specifics, what about powers -- self-granted during wars -- which are no longer in effect, like suspension of habeas corpus, media censorship, sedition acts, labor controls? What about the government not renewing the 1994 assault weapons ban?


Habeas Corpus?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... study.html

Sedition Acts?

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107pu ... publ56.pdf (also see Habeas Corpus)

Labor Controls?

http://www.nlrb.gov/ (your and I definition of Labor controls will vary) :D

1994 Assault Weapons Ban?

I don’t want to get into a discussion about gun control.. again... but one could argue the Federal Government won this battle long ago. How many gun laws are on the books? I would venture to guess a lot more then there were 200 hundred years ago. However lets revisit this in about a year.

redwill wrote:On the economic front, what about wartime rationing? What about taxation levels which during WWII approached 90% for the richest folks? Those tax levels were willingly lowered by the government and no longer exist (unless you listen to EPP.)


Let’s Talk about Taxes because I feel it summarizes my point nicely and after all, tis the season. The tax itself is a power granted to the federal government 100 years ago... However, I am sure they will soon be tripping over themselves to repeal that amendment.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/news/ ... thday.html

redwill wrote:Next, in a slightly different yet related category are the examples of the US government willingly giving up power and control over its own citizens. Miranda v. Arizona comes to mind. The Civil Rights Act. Anti-discrimination acts. I'm sure there are many others related to free speech, freedom of assembly, illegal search and seizure, cruel and inhuman treatment, etc. I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm sure a lawyer or two could provide a few examples on this side of the argument


Illegal Search and Seizure?

http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/warrantless-wiretapping
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and ... gard-email

For every single one of those listed, I can most likely point to other current abuses by the federal government (as I am sure you can do the same). These are just some quick internet searches.

And in relation to returning foreign countries back to their citizen, how many of these countries were occupied illegally in a war not authorized by congress and or the original powers set forth by the constitution? Oh, thats right, they are "conflicts" not war, let the drones FLY!.

You are correct, there are instances, where the federal governments expansion of power has been "slowed", but like I said in my earlier post, the federal government is a freight train, rolling with momentum, it may slow down on occasion, but it will always move forward.

I leave you with this:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 01654.html
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ear_image/
stinky
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:49 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:39 am

shafnutz05 wrote:
doublem wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/16/boston-marathon-explosions-notes-reactions


This is a joke. I would argue that there has been many more rushed claims/suggestions that the attacker was a right-wing nut job trying to do some tax day or Patriot Day tie-in. There has been the "it was the Arabs" sentiment, but I hardly think it's been the prevailing wisdom.

Well, considering Rush spent the bulk of my morning commute yesterday compiling a list of all the media people suggesting it was a right-wing group of some kind, I can understand how you might have missed Rep Peter King asserting within hours of the bombing that this had all the hallmarks of an al Qaeda operation. And that the Saudi man who was 'caught fleeing' the scene was still considered a suspect despite reports - directly from Boston PD and the FBI - that he was nothing more than a bystander and victim.

Any claims as to provenance or motive at this stage are premature.

shafnutz05 wrote:While I agree with him that Americans are blissfully ignorant of the atrocities we commit overseas, Americans are by and large a very empathetic people.

The first half of that sentence does not reconcile with the second half. That's like having a conversation with someone about the dangers of overeating while going for your third round at the buffet. Simply saying something you wish were true doesn't make it so.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:36 am

I disagree. I don't deny how ignorant many Americans are of the actions of their own government, but I think salt of the earth Americans are generally empathetic/kind. And I don't think it is necessarily deliberate ignorance.

On your previous point...didn't I make a point to state that while there have been claims from the usual sources that this was an Islamic terror attack, there have been many, MANY sources also claiming this was some kind of right-wing plot?

On another note...

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/16/lets_hope_the_boston_marathon_bomber_is_a_white_american/

If recent history is any guide, if the bomber ends up being a white anti-government extremist, white privilege will likely mean the attack is portrayed as just an isolated incident — one that has no bearing on any larger policy debates. Put another way, white privilege will work to not only insulate whites from collective blame, but also to insulate the political debate from any fallout from the attack.


The above quote, like the rest of the article, is completely asinine. Whenever a couple white psychos decided to shoot up a movie theater and school, the federal government moved to restrict the rights of tens of millions of gun owners based on the actions of a few.

To add, most white murder incidents lately, well, HAVE been isolated incidents. It is generally a quiet psychopath who leaves some kind of manifesto. The fact is, people like Holmes, the Columbine Shooters, etc didn't belong to any sort of militia or overarching religion/creed. They just had a vendetta against the world.

also...

Jay Mohr

What bothers me most about today is that we're getting used 2 it. ENOUGH. 2nd amendment must go. Violence has 2 stop. Culture MUST change


:face: :face: :face:
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 60,559
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:07 pm

Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 44,371
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Ignoranti

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:11 pm

I don't believe that the average american considers muslims/Arabs to be, well, human. "They" are the enemy. Otherwise, how do explain things like the NYPD/FBI/DHS stasi-esque surveillance of muslim-americans? Would that be tolerable were it happening in your community? This isn't simply about ignorance of actions half way around the globe. The only reason "we" turn a blind eye to it is because "we" are not the targeted demographic. It is the only reason. "We" would still welcome internment camps a la WWII if the government deemed it necessary.

If recent history is any guide, if the bomber ends up being a white anti-government extremist, white privilege will likely mean the attack is portrayed as just an isolated incident — one that has no bearing on any larger policy debates.


Policy debate?? Please. I wonder if he means like all of the meaningful policy debate that occurred after 9/11? The very mention of blowback causes 95% of the country to crap their pants. There's never any policy debate. Idiots just wrap themselves up in the american flag and shout ridiculous talking points they pick up from whatever clown talk show host they prefer. That's the extent of the policy debate.
GaryRissling
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,635
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bh on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:57 pm

GaryRissling wrote:
If recent history is any guide, if the bomber ends up being a white anti-government extremist, white privilege will likely mean the attack is portrayed as just an isolated incident — one that has no bearing on any larger policy debates.
Really since 9-11 our own crazies are way more scary and destructive than those from overseas.

My view is that terrorism is something that is very very rare. And while it is a terrible thing and a tradgedy, it's really nothing to go nuts over and lock down everyones lives. Basically it's done to provoke a reaction. It's a tactic that has been around for thousands of years and is not going away anytime soon. They just need to focus on finding the people responsible and taking them down before they can hurt anyone else.
bh
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,605
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:48 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:26 pm

From the request line:


columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,889
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:50 pm

bh wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:
If recent history is any guide, if the bomber ends up being a white anti-government extremist, white privilege will likely mean the attack is portrayed as just an isolated incident — one that has no bearing on any larger policy debates.
Really since 9-11 our own crazies are way more scary and destructive than those from overseas.

My view is that terrorism is something that is very very rare. And while it is a terrible thing and a tradgedy, it's really nothing to go nuts over and lock down everyones lives. Basically it's done to provoke a reaction. It's a tactic that has been around for thousands of years and is not going away anytime soon. They just need to focus on finding the people responsible and taking them down before they can hurt anyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, the minute the USA PATRIOT Act was signed into law, bin Laden accomplished his goals. Al Qaeda won this 'war' twelve years ago.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:51 pm

it certainly felt that way.....and has since then.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,889
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:52 pm

BTW, I would totally vote for that dude from the NZ parliament.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,889
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby stinky on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:59 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
bh wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:
If recent history is any guide, if the bomber ends up being a white anti-government extremist, white privilege will likely mean the attack is portrayed as just an isolated incident — one that has no bearing on any larger policy debates.
Really since 9-11 our own crazies are way more scary and destructive than those from overseas.

My view is that terrorism is something that is very very rare. And while it is a terrible thing and a tradgedy, it's really nothing to go nuts over and lock down everyones lives. Basically it's done to provoke a reaction. It's a tactic that has been around for thousands of years and is not going away anytime soon. They just need to focus on finding the people responsible and taking them down before they can hurt anyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, the minute the USA PATRIOT Act was signed into law, bin Laden accomplished his goals. Al Qaeda won this 'war' twelve years ago.


Agree 100%, its interesting how this issue crosses ideological lines.
stinky
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:49 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:16 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
bh wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:
If recent history is any guide, if the bomber ends up being a white anti-government extremist, white privilege will likely mean the attack is portrayed as just an isolated incident — one that has no bearing on any larger policy debates.
Really since 9-11 our own crazies are way more scary and destructive than those from overseas.

My view is that terrorism is something that is very very rare. And while it is a terrible thing and a tradgedy, it's really nothing to go nuts over and lock down everyones lives. Basically it's done to provoke a reaction. It's a tactic that has been around for thousands of years and is not going away anytime soon. They just need to focus on finding the people responsible and taking them down before they can hurt anyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, the minute the USA PATRIOT Act was signed into law, bin Laden accomplished his goals. Al Qaeda won this 'war' twelve years ago.


OBL couldn't care less about the freedoms of Americans. He wanted to punish us for our involvement in the ME (presence in Saudi Arabia, sanctions of Iraq in the 1990's, treatment of Palestinians, etc). He tried justifying attacking US citizens by saying that we were the ones financing the actions he decried; but I can't imagine that he'd find any consolation in an even more totalitarian US government.
GaryRissling
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,635
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:23 pm

Perhaps a better way to phrase it then would be we lost the war almost before it ever began.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:30 pm

That's the very essence of terrorism. A singular awful act against a (relatively) small number that ends up affecting the lives of many, many more people.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 60,559
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


e-mail