LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:10 am

tifosi77 wrote:
Gaucho wrote:His nickname clearly indicates that tifosi hates America and would much rather be Italian. 77 is probably code for GG, as in Greasy Ginny.

There are two types of people in the world: Italians, and people who wish they were Italian.

:P

And then there's Amanda Knox :scared:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am

tifosi77 wrote:I want to get this in here before the thread gets down into the weeds. A very important story is being lost in the chaff of the Boston coverage.

U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Conclude
A nonpartisan, independent review of interrogation and detention programs in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks concludes that “it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.

The sweeping, 577-page report says that while brutality has occurred in every American war, there never before had been “the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after 9/11 directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody.” The study, by an 11-member panel convened by the Constitution Project, a legal research and advocacy group, is to be released on Tuesday morning.

*****************

While the Constitution Project report covers mainly the Bush years, it is critical of some Obama administration policies, especially what it calls excessive secrecy. It says that keeping the details of rendition and torture from the public “cannot continue to be justified on the basis of national security” and urges the administration to stop citing state secrets to block lawsuits by former detainees.


It's amazed me that we grilled Mark McGwire about his "i'm not here to talk about the past" steroid defense; yet it's the exact philosophy this administration has used to justify not prosecuting officials who may have engaged in war crimes ("we need to look forward not backward"). And, hey, we're totally cool with it. Somewhere Mark McGwire must think he's in that FedEx commercial [where the CEO parrots the employee but gets praised because of a hand gesture].
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:24 am

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:38 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Please cite us to the many many instances of voter fraud that IDs would have prevented, and this debate can continue.


Tif, please... (otherwise you're making a decent debate point), but please...

This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these ID laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent voting that would be consigned to the dustbin of history if only we had photo IDs.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:39 am

[sarcasm]We are very empathetic towards Arabs and Muslims[/sarcasm]. So much so, we will be willing to allow Israel to be the only country to allow denial of visas based on the ethnicity of Americans if they happen to be of arab or muslim descent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... rimination
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:41 am

GaryRissling wrote:[sarcasm]We are very empathetic towards Arabs and Muslims[/sarcasm]. So much so, we will be willing to allow Israel to be the only country to allow denial of visas based on the ethnicity of Americans if they happen to be of arab or muslim descent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... rimination


That;s pretty outrageous.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:43 am

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Please cite us to the many many instances of voter fraud that IDs would have prevented, and this debate can continue.


Tif, please... (otherwise you're making a decent debate point), but please...

This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these ID laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent voting that would be consigned to the dustbin of history if only we had photo IDs.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.


That same "argument" could be applied to voter registration as well Tif.

Should we abolish voter registration?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby IamtheWaris on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:14 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Please cite us to the many many instances of voter fraud that IDs would have prevented, and this debate can continue.


Tif, please... (otherwise you're making a decent debate point), but please...

This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these ID laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent voting that would be consigned to the dustbin of history if only we had photo IDs.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.


Prior to Chara destroying Pacioretty into the bench these kinds of hits did not happen in any statistcally significant way so therefore the NHL had wait until they had some significant statistics of these hits occuring before they made a change? Or could they have taken the intiative to change the bench area so that these hits could be avoided? Proactive vs reactive.

Anyway how can you catch voter fraud when nobody uses an ID? I'm sure everyone on here has seen numerous video's of people casting votes as Eric Holder or whoever. It happens everywhere. Lets not be naive.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:34 pm

It's sick-funny that while yesterday I mentioned ALQ didn't impose the Iraq war upon us with 9/11; I failed to consider the other side of the equation. That being the death and destruction imposed by us and on the iraqi people through no fault of their own.

Again an example of our empathy, and simply an unsightly wart on an otherwise noble foreign policy. Because, hey, regime change worked so well for us in Iran in the 50's, right? It isn't like we're still paying for that one or anything.

This also touches on the media's role/culpability in the debate:

http://www.salon.com/2008/03/26/iraq_debate_2/
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:55 pm

To paraphrase tifosi77:


This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these background check laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent gun sales that future mass shootings would be prevented if only we had background checks of private sales.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:59 pm

DelPen wrote:To paraphrase tifosi77:


This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these background check laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent gun sales that future mass shootings would be prevented if only we had background checks of private sales.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.


i think he agrees with this :wink:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:20 pm

Another example of our heavy-handed government infringing on people's rights:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#/video/topvideos/2013/04/17/moos-pkg-you-put-hose-where.cnn
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:22 pm

Tico Rick wrote:Another example of our heavy-handed government infringing on people's rights:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#/video/topvideos/2013/04/17/moos-pkg-you-put-hose-where.cnn


The sheriff made him eat 4 bowls of Colon Blow?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:23 pm

Tico Rick wrote:Another example of our heavy-handed government infringing on people's rights:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c3#/video/topvideos/2013/04/17/moos-pkg-you-put-hose-where.cnn


This is fantastic, and not remotely an infringement on rights.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Tico Rick on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:28 pm

Shaf, you know I was being ironic, right?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:35 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Please cite us to the many many instances of voter fraud that IDs would have prevented, and this debate can continue.


Tif, please... (otherwise you're making a decent debate point), but please...

This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these ID laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent voting that would be consigned to the dustbin of history if only we had photo IDs.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.


That same "argument" could be applied to voter registration as well Tif.

Should we abolish voter registration?


Its a valid argument; while fraud may not be an issue, suppression absolutely is. Is there any proven suppression due to voter ID laws? There absolutely is both recent and historical record of voter suppression based on registration methods.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:54 pm

Tico Rick wrote:Shaf, you know I was being ironic, right?


:D Yes, of course. I'm sure the vehicle owner was a rabid libertarian that day though.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:31 pm

IamtheWaris wrote:Prior to Chara destroying Pacioretty into the bench these kinds of hits did not happen in any statistcally significant way so therefore the NHL had wait until they had some significant statistics of these hits occuring before they made a change?

Well, hits like that were already illegal.... just like fraudulently voting is already illegal.

ExPatriatePen wrote:That same "argument" could be applied to voter registration as well Tif.

Should we abolish voter registration?

It's interesting that you chose that line of argument....... because registration fraud actually does happen, and somewhat frequently. Certainly happens much more so that voter fraud, which is the only activity that photo IDs could even pretend to inhibit.

And - for the record - I am not against voter ID cards. It does make sense in today's world where fewer and fewer people are not 'wired'. However, there isn't a single one of the 2012 measures that could, even in the most charitable of terms, be characterized as anything even remotely aimed at preserving voting integrity. The PA law in particular was almost comically stupid; as written and passed, there was no way the body empowered by the law to issue the IDs could have possibly met the demand by voting day.

DelPen wrote:To paraphrase tifosi77:


This is the very crux of the issue. People are clamoring for these background check laws as if there country is awash in fraudulent gun sales that future mass shootings would be prevented if only we had background checks of private sales.........

And it's a rubbish notion, because it simply does not happen in any statistically significant way that can be justification for these kinds of supressive requirements.

Aside from the last sentence, that's actually accurate.

I am not a believer in the oft-cited statistic of 40% of gun sales are private party transactions outside the reach of background checks. But the three biggest channels for people getting guns who shouldn't be getting them are corrupt FFLs selling guns 'off-the-books' (I read recently that in one year alone something like 2,500 FLLs were investigated and over 10,000 of their stock was simply 'missing'), straw purchases, and private party transactions. Expanding background checks can impact one of those for certain and likely a second as well. (Not sure how you do anything proactive to address straw purchases.)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:44 pm

The 40% BS stat has been debunked several times but here is the best one: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... _blog.html

All of these mass shooters got there guns either by theft or through legal channels. Can someone point me to one incident where they got the weapons through an online sale where they didn't need to have the guns shipped to an FFL for transfer or in a side deal at a gun show?

Let's star actually enforcing the current laws by forcing states to fully implement NICS and prosecute people violating the laws before adding more regulation on top of this.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BigMcK on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:53 pm

By adding more regulations, doesn't it justify the request to add more government to enforce the new regulations? Win - Win.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:08 pm

make illegal arms dealers do background checks, duh.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:31 pm

tifosi77 wrote:I want to get this in here before the thread gets down into the weeds. A very important story is being lost in the chaff of the Boston coverage.

U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Conclude

A link to the names of all the members of the Constitution Project's panel that conducted the research.

Task Force on Detainee Treatment

One of the members, Brigadier General David Irvine (USA-ret), was on a local NPR show yesterday and commented that some of the torture methods employed by the U.S. included physical beatings to the point of breaking bones, attempts to put out the eyes of detainees, and 'body cavity violations' with broken glass bottles (among other types of sexual denigrations).

They were also not able to identify a single instance in which information gathered by these methods led to any sort of useful intelligence.

Granted, they were not given access to classified information. But if all the above was part of the public record....... where has the media been on this for the past decade?!
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Geezer on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:46 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Geezer wrote:
doublem wrote:willfully ignorant and self-important but refusing to look at our own failures of a nation.

True to an extent. As is willfully ignorant, holier-than-thou and refusing to look at our successes as a nation. Basic difference as shown on this board is that some consider this a great country with its share of warts; but the good greatly outweighing the bad. Others view it as a terrible country with the little good far outweighed by the bad.

I think you're making a fundamental mistake in your analysis here, and presuming that because people are willing to express concern over warts that they are therefore immediately in the bin of people who view this as a terrible country with few redeeming qualities. And I think that's false.

Take me for example...... how would you characterize my personal view of this country?

I did not mean that expressing concerns equates to those people thinking it's a terrible country or has few redeeming views. I don't believe that at all. I was trying to take one generalization and give the opinion that an opposite generalization is also true to a degree. By that I mean the first generalization applies to some, the second applies to other and most people fall somewhere in between. I'm probably guilty of believing the best of this country a high majority of the time. If I had to rate this country it would be an 8 to 9 on a 10 scale.

As far as your view of the country, I don't know and it doesn't matter. I see nothing that indicates you don't like America or have a negative overall viewpoint. Besides things I view as bad or good are often viewed just the opposite by others. I know I;m wrong somewhere between 5 - 10% of the time. I don't consider those people bad, unpatriotic, whatever, even though I use strident, caustic tones. That's more my personality than lack of respect for others' opinions.
Generally most people that post in the PD are likely concerned more than many people about the good of the country, the good of the world,etc. There's just I wide gulf between what various posters believe would make things better
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:54 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:I want to get this in here before the thread gets down into the weeds. A very important story is being lost in the chaff of the Boston coverage.

U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Conclude

A link to the names of all the members of the Constitution Project's panel that conducted the research.

Task Force on Detainee Treatment

One of the members, Brigadier General David Irvine (USA-ret), was on a local NPR show yesterday and commented that some of the torture methods employed by the U.S. included physical beatings to the point of breaking bones, attempts to put out the eyes of detainees, and 'body cavity violations' with broken glass bottles (among other types of sexual denigrations).

They were also not able to identify a single instance in which information gathered by these methods led to any sort of useful intelligence.

Granted, they were not given access to classified information. But if all the above was part of the public record....... where has the media been on this for the past decade?!


Going through Sarah Palin's emails?

The media is a disgrace. And I also hope both sides now see that you should not give the government any more power than is minimally necessary because you can have an Obama or a Bush wield it in what can and has been horrible ways.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Geezer on Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:00 pm

Gaucho wrote:His nickname clearly indicates that tifosi hates America and would much rather be Italian. 77 is probably code for GG, as in Greasy Ginny.

I've usually seen the derogatory term spelled guinea.
Free info from an Ellis Island History channel special. Many Italian immigrants arrived without documents. The immigration workers wroue "without papers" at the top of their forms. This was shortened to W.O.P. to indicate without papers. This evolved into wop.

Officials used to record immigrants' religions using symbols; for Christians they put a little cross. For Jews they put a small circle. A circle is called kiken (yiddish)? These eventually morhed into calling jews kikes.
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