LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:06 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:We've already gone over that Sarcastic. You can't buy a gun from a vendor at a gun show without a background check.


Why don't you read up the tens of articles on this particular issue, including about three I posted a few months ago. You're 100% wrong.


No, what you posted then and what you're saying now are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

Also, I'm not getting "personal". I'm just trying to figure out why you keep re-hashing the same arguments over and over again even though Shyster and others have proven what you've said incorrect every single time.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:12 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:We've already gone over that Sarcastic. You can't buy a gun from a vendor at a gun show without a background check.


Why don't you read up the tens of articles on this particular issue, including about three I posted a few months ago. You're 100% wrong.


No, what you posted then and what you're saying now are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

Also, I'm not getting "personal". I'm just trying to figure out why you keep re-hashing the same arguments over and over again even though Shyster and others have proven what you've said incorrect every single time.


People buy guns, illegaly, without background checks at such events. That's one. Two, all I keep hearing on TV how a whole bunch of gun sales go, legally, without a background check.

No one has proved anything. They just posted their opinions. Also, if you believe in democracy and understand about 90% of people (google it) want stricter measures, you should probably just accept it.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:13 pm

Anyway. I am tired of this talk. Reason why I don't get too deeply into talks here. I have my views and feel that people don't usually convince others of theirs, so it becomes a boring circle.

Respect goes to all who differ with me on all this stuff.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:22 pm

Yeah, people buy guns illegally. Why would more laws stop that from happening?

And as we've said in this thread not some 2 pages ago, that 90% number is bogus. That survey never existed. The only ones I see are done by newspapers like the Washington Post, so saying that the people who take the Washington Post's surveys = America is a HUUUUUUGE reach. It's just political BS trying to get people to buy into Obama's agenda.

98% of statistics are made up on the spot. Perhaps we should just ban statistics, then.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Most of the sellers at gun shows are gun shops (in other words, holders of federal gun-dealer licenses, or FFLs). FFL holders have to perform background checks no matter where they are selling from. Buying a gun at a gun show is treated no differently than buying a gun at their brick-and-mortar location. Private sellers are a tiny fraction of the sellers at gun shows.

Some private sellers (that is, people who do not have FFLs) use gun shows to sell guns in isolated or one-off transactions. I’ve seen guys walking around shows with rifles and shotguns slung over their shoulder and signs that say something like “$500 or best offer” pinned to the back of their coats. If that person wants to sell that rifle, he doesn’t need to do a background check on the purchaser, because he’s not a FFL holder. In Pennsylvania, however, that does not apply to handguns, only long guns. Every transfer of a handgun must go through a FFL holder, who will perform a background check.

So, yes, there are opportunities for people to go to gun shows and buy rifles and shotguns without background checks. That doesn’t mean that all of those sales would be presently legal. Say I have a rifle to sell. If I don’t confirm that the buyer is from Pennsylvania, I just broke the law. If I know or believe the person might have a criminal record, I just broke the law. If I’m selling a gun I think might be stolen, I’m breaking the law.

Now let’s switch to the buyer. Say Bob the convicted criminal goes to a gun show and buys a rifle there from a private seller because that way he can get a gun without a background check. Even possessing that gun (let alone buying it) is a federal crime carrying 10 years in jail as a penalty. If Bob goes to Ohio and buys a handgun there, that’s 5 years in jail for buying across state lines. If Bob buys a stolen gun out of the trunk of someone’s car, that’s 10 years in jail. If Bob uses fake ID to buy a gun, that’s 10 years in jail.

Basically, the only people who can legally buy a gun from another person without a background check are the people who could pass a background check anyway.

Sarcastic wrote:You can't tell me that you're OK with people being able to give/sell their guns to friends or family members either, as they were talking about on TV the other day.

Why would I be opposed to that? It doesn’t change the fact that you can’t give a gun to someone you know is a criminal, nor does it change the fact that prohibited people can’t own or possess guns. And why shouldn’t I be able to loan a rifle to my buddy so he can hunt with it, or loan a shotgun to my brother if he’s worried about neighborhood break-ins?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:35 pm

columbia wrote:How about if you meet up with the vendor after the gun show?
I'm asking because I don't know the answer.


If he's an FFL then no, he would be breaking the law. Once you become an FFL all transactions need a 4473, a background check unless you live in a State where a concealed weapons permit can be used in lieu and the transaction gets recorded in your book.

If I am at the show, not having being an FFL, we can meet anywhere and provided you are legally allowed to own a firearm and we are both residents of the same state then we can meet at the parking lot in Walmart and sell whatever provided it is legal to do in your state.

But in all cases, if the purchaser is not allowed to own firearms then you can't sell to them. No new laws will stop people already breaking current laws from ignoring new ones.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:53 pm

Sarcastic wrote:I'm too lazy to look up Australia but according to wiki, guns are still available to own in the UK and the measures taken have resulted in a pretty great result:

The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world. There were 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010, compared to the 3.0 in the United States (over 40 times higher) and 0.21 in Germany (3x higher).

A few things need to be factored in when talking referencing crime data from the UK.

For the purposes of statistical data analysis in the UK, a crime is only recognized to have been committed if a criminal conviction is obtained. To me that's absurd, but there you go; I believe the UK term for these non-crimes is "Incidents of interest to the police", or some such malarkey. That's not how it happens in the U.S., where all data are used to compile these stats. So you're comparing very selective data vs raw data, and that's going to skew things. If you apply the U.S. method of data collection to the UK, you end up with a much different narrative..... I've seen some studies that indicate that the per 100,000 gun death rate in Britain is actually over 150% of the U.S. rate. (Something like 8.something per 100k)

Another thing to note that sort of ties into that is the historical rate of homicide in Britain has always been quite low (at least as compared to the U.S.), so going from low to even more low, frankly, isn't a particularly useful piece of empirical support.

Also, while the 1997 handgun ban didn't completely eradicate private ownership it did so in probably 98% of cases. The only handguns allowed for private possession are things like curio, museum quality pieces, black powder guns, and the like. Good grief, the UK Olympic shooting team isn't even allowed to practice in most jurisdictions under the ban! They own their pistols, and so have to travel to places like the Isle of Man to train.

Sarcastic wrote:I don't believe that we have less burglaries here because some dumbass is afraid the victim who's in his bed passed out sleeping has a weapon somewhere.

Don't take my word for it, ask convicted burglars. I'm typing this up quickly as I'm getting ready to leave work for the day, but something like 80% of convicted burglars say they have personally made a decision to not burgle a residence because of a potential homeowner with a gun, and something like 2/3 of them report knowing someone who had been physically confronted by a homeowner with a gun.

And in this realm of 'deterrence' the gun in private hands need not even be real. One guy quipped, "If there's a U.S. flag on the outside, there's probably a gun on the inside."

Sarcastic wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:We've already gone over that Sarcastic. You can't buy a gun from a vendor at a gun show without a background check.


Why don't you read up the tens of articles on this particular issue, including about three I posted a few months ago. You're 100% wrong.

At the risk of stepping in it........ you cannot legally purchase a gun from an FFL without a background check if that type of gun would require a background check at the FFL's store. It happens, yes. But it is illegal when it happens. And it never prosecuted. I can't possibly explain why, but there you go.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby doublem on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:17 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
doublem wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
MWB wrote:Regarding parents: kids that have parents who care are in the best shape. Could be a single parent, two working parents, traditional, two guys.... Just a lot harder for a single parent since they are the only one.


I never noticed much of a difference between kids with two parents that worked or had someone at home. Caring is the key component; plenty of parents that are home and still don't care. Not sure what the statistics would say, but for boys... a dad is a sign that a kid has a shot. If a boy has no father in his life... prepare for the worst.


where does that idea come from?


Statistics.

A boy who grows up without a father is, by no means, destined for failure. Not in the least. Statistics happen to show that it is more likely is all. All boys deserve a strong male role model in their life.


Its more significant than "statistics happen to show". Have you ever studied youth psych profiles? There are stats to support it, but profiles for many behavioral & social disorders begin with a fatherless home situation, and generally include an inferiority complex (i.e. unfounded hatred) coupled with a deep-seeded inability to comply with rule or law (i.e. tendency toward extreme escalation).

The incidence of violent behavior is probably low, so you're correct probably right that its not a 'destined for failure' situation, but the consistency in the profile for violent and extreme behavior and social disorders is significant.

But, since you raise the statistics -- and even seek to dismiss them a bit -- here are a few: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201106/the-decline-fatherhood-and-the-male-identity-crisis

The incidence of social & behavioral disorders are more than statistically relevant. Half of all children living with a single mother live in poverty. The majority of sexual abuses are committed against fatherless children. Rates of teen pregnancy, drug and alcohol abuse, high school drop outs are higher... 90% of all homelessness people come from homes without fathers. 85% of all people that demonstrate behavioral disorders are from fatherless homes. 72% of murderers, 60% of rapists, 63% of youth suicides came from homes without a father.


whats a social disorder?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby doublem on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:23 pm

those tax dollars everyone always talks about. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7736157/ns/he ... XivaaLU8k9
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pucks_and_Pols on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:43 pm

Does anyone else think the big loss on the gun control vote has PBO on the road to lame duck status? The more I ponder it, the more I can't get past how much effort and support he threw behind this as pres, and then he couldnt even get a tepid compromise thru a Democratic controlled Senate. If that isn't a sign of a fading 2nd term agenda, I don't kno what is.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:34 am

Article on how most guns used to commit crimes are obtained illegally.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /guns.html
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:43 am

doublem wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
doublem wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
I never noticed much of a difference between kids with two parents that worked or had someone at home. Caring is the key component; plenty of parents that are home and still don't care. Not sure what the statistics would say, but for boys... a dad is a sign that a kid has a shot. If a boy has no father in his life... prepare for the worst.


where does that idea come from?


Statistics.

A boy who grows up without a father is, by no means, destined for failure. Not in the least. Statistics happen to show that it is more likely is all. All boys deserve a strong male role model in their life.


Its more significant than "statistics happen to show". Have you ever studied youth psych profiles? There are stats to support it, but profiles for many behavioral & social disorders begin with a fatherless home situation, and generally include an inferiority complex (i.e. unfounded hatred) coupled with a deep-seeded inability to comply with rule or law (i.e. tendency toward extreme escalation).

The incidence of violent behavior is probably low, so you're correct probably right that its not a 'destined for failure' situation, but the consistency in the profile for violent and extreme behavior and social disorders is significant.

But, since you raise the statistics -- and even seek to dismiss them a bit -- here are a few: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201106/the-decline-fatherhood-and-the-male-identity-crisis

The incidence of social & behavioral disorders are more than statistically relevant. Half of all children living with a single mother live in poverty. The majority of sexual abuses are committed against fatherless children. Rates of teen pregnancy, drug and alcohol abuse, high school drop outs are higher... 90% of all homelessness people come from homes without fathers. 85% of all people that demonstrate behavioral disorders are from fatherless homes. 72% of murderers, 60% of rapists, 63% of youth suicides came from homes without a father.


whats a social disorder?


Macro behavioral disorders, observed large-scale
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:26 am

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Article on how most guns used to commit crimes are obtained illegally.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /guns.html


Wait, criminals will break the law and continue breaking the law? :shock:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:39 am

So apparently our completely worthless federal government wants to weasel exemptions for obamacare for just them.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/o ... 90610.html

I swear I have no idea why anyone would even bother voting for any incumbent ever.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:47 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:So apparently our completely worthless federal government wants to weasel exemptions for obamacare for just them.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/o ... 90610.html

I swear I have no idea why anyone would even bother voting for any incumbent ever.


Mainly because it takes less than one cycle to corrupt any new official. Chances are to get in position to be in a general election you sell your soul to the national party and then it's over.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:20 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:So apparently our completely worthless federal government wants to weasel exemptions for obamacare for just them.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/o ... 90610.html

I swear I have no idea why anyone would even bother voting for any incumbent ever.


This story needs to be blasted from the mountaintops.

Do you remember when Obamacare was hailed as one of the greatest (if not the greatest) achievement in the history of the United States Congress? Now, fully knowing that a majority of Americans dislike this piece of legislation, they are going to lobby to get themselves exempted from it, while the rest of us poor saps will see our premiums go up significantly starting next year.

How can anyone defend this? I'm not sure this country will ever get there, but the constant shoving of the middle finger in our faces by the federal government is the kind of thing that leads to not-so-good things happening.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:34 am

This is nothing new. I'm pretty sure Congress was immune from rules against insider trading until recently.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:49 am

I really can't stand that outlook. "Oh, well it's been that way so who cares?" or "This is nothing new" So what? Does that make it any better?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:26 pm

Congress is so freaking corrupt. What a joke.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:25 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Congress is so freaking corrupt. What a joke.


Newsflash eh? :) ;) :)

Probbaly the biggest argument against "big government" I've ever heard, and it only took you five (5) words to expres it! :)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:44 pm

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.

Spoiler:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:44 pm

As much as I despise the feds (obviously), for some reason I'm a sucker for pictures like this. Carter seems to still be fairly spry. I caught the tail end of Bush II's speech, it was really touching I thought.

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:51 pm

pink socks
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:02 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:pink socks


Bush Sr. is a fun dude. Shame to see his health failing
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:21 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:pink socks


Bush Sr. is a fun dude. Shame to see his health failing


Read my PINK socks! :)
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