LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Wed May 15, 2013 11:54 pm

pensfan1989 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Rylan wrote:
Factorial wrote:But seriously EPP, we have a philosophical difference on how rewards should be distributed. In my mind, efficiency is not the be all end all.


What is the be all end all?


Paying a living wage.


What is a living wage exactly?


I'd say it would be something like: enough money to afford necessities without being terrified of getting sick, a car breaking down, or a costly accident that obliterates any savings and possibly ruins any chance of being more financially comfortable for years down the road.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Thu May 16, 2013 2:38 am

BigMcK wrote:I'd like to be rich without the help of the government.

Isn't about to happen, but a poor broke American can still dream...


I think everyone would. People have pride, sometimes too much. But for a lot of people this isn't about getting rich anymore. It's about survival. One bad accident, a disease, the car breaks down, and a family can be in trouble. An article that came out not too long ago said that at least 40% of people here earn so little, they not only could not make a quick $2000 purchase, but worse yet, they simply can't afford to put anything away for a rainy day. We are talking United States. It's an absolute shame what has happened to this country.

I know someone who's wife delivered a baby and had a small complication requiring she stayed in the hospital for a couple of days. The guy's company recently changed insurers to save money, of course, as many companies across the US do these days, so the thing ended up not being covered and he got a bill for about $100,000. He went in with tears in his eyes and had a blowout with his bosses. Luckily, he didn't get fired but he's now going to be paying that off for I don't know how long. It shouldn't be that difficult to live here.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu May 16, 2013 7:21 am

Kaizer wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Rylan wrote:
Factorial wrote:But seriously EPP, we have a philosophical difference on how rewards should be distributed. In my mind, efficiency is not the be all end all.


What is the be all end all?


Paying a living wage.


What is a living wage exactly?


I'd say it would be something like: enough money to afford necessities without being terrified of getting sick, a car breaking down, or a costly accident that obliterates any savings and possibly ruins any chance of being more financially comfortable for years down the road.


What are necessities? Food, shelter, what else? Cell phone, high speed Internet and cable, are those necessities?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Thu May 16, 2013 7:47 am

How about dignity.

Someone who works hard all week, 40+ hours or whatever, should be able to afford a little more than just food and shelter.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Thu May 16, 2013 8:10 am

Kaizer wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Rylan wrote:
Factorial wrote:But seriously EPP, we have a philosophical difference on how rewards should be distributed. In my mind, efficiency is not the be all end all.


What is the be all end all?


Paying a living wage.


What is a living wage exactly?


I'd say it would be something like: enough money to afford necessities without being terrified of getting sick, a car breaking down, or a costly accident that obliterates any savings and possibly ruins any chance of being more financially comfortable for years down the road.


So, a living wage is a risk-free lifestyle?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Thu May 16, 2013 8:30 am

I dont know what Factorial's answer would have been, so this is just my own spin. no "lifestyle" is risk free. i'd say it would be more stress free. more stress free, not country club life.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 8:40 am

DelPen wrote:
Kaizer wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Rylan wrote:What is the be all end all?


Paying a living wage.


What is a living wage exactly?


I'd say it would be something like: enough money to afford necessities without being terrified of getting sick, a car breaking down, or a costly accident that obliterates any savings and possibly ruins any chance of being more financially comfortable for years down the road.


What are necessities? Food, shelter, what else? Cell phone, high speed Internet and cable, are those necessities?

How many people do you know who work 40 hours a week and don't have everything on that list?
You'd think we had a nation of people living in old refrigerator boxes under freeway overpasses if you listened to some folks.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Thu May 16, 2013 8:41 am

DelPen wrote:
Kaizer wrote:I'd say it would be something like: enough money to afford necessities without being terrified of getting sick, a car breaking down, or a costly accident that obliterates any savings and possibly ruins any chance of being more financially comfortable for years down the road.


What are necessities? Food, shelter, what else? Cell phone, high speed Internet and cable, are those necessities?


before you get all crazy with the poor people buying luxuries thing, no those arent necessities. if you cant afford a cell phone bill, get a pre paid one, theyre awesome. ive been using one for years and i wouldnt trade it for a smart phone if i could afford it. i dont know what area has low speed internet anymore so i dont know about that.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu May 16, 2013 8:56 am

Kaizer wrote:
DelPen wrote:
Kaizer wrote:I'd say it would be something like: enough money to afford necessities without being terrified of getting sick, a car breaking down, or a costly accident that obliterates any savings and possibly ruins any chance of being more financially comfortable for years down the road.


What are necessities? Food, shelter, what else? Cell phone, high speed Internet and cable, are those necessities?


before you get all crazy with the poor people buying luxuries thing, no those arent necessities. if you cant afford a cell phone bill, get a pre paid one, theyre awesome. ive been using one for years and i wouldnt trade it for a smart phone if i could afford it. i dont know what area has low speed internet anymore so i dont know about that.


That's kind of my point. There are some very poor people in this country but even the people who are in "poverty" are living very well compared to people all over the world. You look back 20-30 years ago you don't have a cable and cell phone bill combined that's probably close to $400-$500 a month. They didn't have iPhone's and 50" plasma TV's. Roughing it now is having a prepaid "dumb" phone and probably a 32" LCD and no HBO in your cable plan.

Before anyone starts crying about the working poor look at the choices they have made to get to that position. I would bet a large majority of them are spending a lot of money on things like DirecTV, Cell phones, iPad's and eating out almost every day and night. Look at the news when something happens in the inner city, almost every house has a dish installed. in 24/7, Laich brings gifts too a needy family on Christmas, there was barely enough room to stand in their living room next to the 50+" TV.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 9:00 am

Poor people use there money for booze, drugs, and used luxury cars they can't afford. Your argument only valid in a perfect society. If people actually used what little money they had to invest in themselves and not the local bar, they would be making more. I started from the bottom, joined the army, took advantage of the money for schooling, just graduated from PSU with a 3.9 gpa, and now got hired making good money and benefits.

On the contrary, I know plenty of ex-military that go to for-profit schools (kaplan, phoenix, etc...) just for the living allowance that comes from the gi bill. Those for profit schools in some cases will pass you through just to keep harvesting that cash from you or throw you put after the first semester depending on the honesty of the campus staff.

Some people will never be able to make smart decisions and that is why communism and other socialist dream worlds only work on paper. In reality there is a class of people that will always try to drag everyone else down with it and they will always exist.
Last edited by thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Thu May 16, 2013 9:49 am

Perception isn't always reality. Generalizations are usually not valid.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 9:56 am

MWB wrote:Perception isn't always reality. Generalizations are usually not valid.


This statement itself is a generalization and directed at nothing
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Thu May 16, 2013 10:13 am

thepittman wrote:
MWB wrote:Perception isn't always reality. Generalizations are usually not valid.


This statement itself is a generalization and directed at nothing


"Poor people use there money for booze, drugs, and used luxury cars they can't afford."
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:18 am

MWB wrote:
thepittman wrote:
MWB wrote:Perception isn't always reality. Generalizations are usually not valid.


This statement itself is a generalization and directed at nothing


"Poor people use there money for booze, drugs, and used luxury cars they can't afford."


I grew up poor, I know what most of the people around me did with their money. Of course there are exceptions, but they are mostly outliers. If they didn't follow this mold they wouldn't be poor, but instead live comfortably within their means.
Last edited by thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 10:18 am

MWB wrote:
thepittman wrote:
MWB wrote:Perception isn't always reality. Generalizations are usually not valid.


This statement itself is a generalization and directed at nothing


"Poor people use there money for booze, drugs, and used luxury cars they can't afford."


Because we all know that those kind of people don't exist.

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu May 16, 2013 10:19 am

Sarcastic wrote:I know someone who's wife delivered a baby and had a small complication requiring she stayed in the hospital for a couple of days. The guy's company recently changed insurers to save money, of course, as many companies across the US do these days, so the thing ended up not being covered and he got a bill for about $100,000. He went in with tears in his eyes and had a blowout with his bosses. Luckily, he didn't get fired but he's now going to be paying that off for I don't know how long. It shouldn't be that difficult to live here.


The solution to fix healthcare is easy. Non-profit hospitals can only be non-profit if they charge medicare prices for everyone. I bet that bill would have been like 9k on medicare prices.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu May 16, 2013 10:21 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:You'd think we had a nation of people living in old refrigerator boxes under freeway overpasses if you listened to some folks.

On any given day in this country there are over 600,000 people who can be classified as 'homeless'. That's equivalent to a city the size of Washington D.C. or Boston.

Kaizer wrote:i dont know what area has low speed internet anymore so i dont know about that.

Actually, the U.S. is kinda sucky in terms of broadband coverage. I don't even think we rank in the top ten in terms of per capita access to high speed internet.

DelPen wrote:Before anyone starts crying about the working poor look at the choices they have made to get to that position. I would bet a large majority of them are spending a lot of money on things like DirecTV, Cell phones, iPad's and eating out almost every day and night.

Having come from a very poor background, and therefore having lived amongst other very poor people most of my childhood, I'd take that bet in a heartbeat.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 am

Some people are under the delusion they can help everyone, but in reality a good portion of those people just want to take advantage of you and your kindness. They see you as scum looking up because you have things they can't have and aren't grateful when you give them "handouts"
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:25 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:I know someone who's wife delivered a baby and had a small complication requiring she stayed in the hospital for a couple of days. The guy's company recently changed insurers to save money, of course, as many companies across the US do these days, so the thing ended up not being covered and he got a bill for about $100,000. He went in with tears in his eyes and had a blowout with his bosses. Luckily, he didn't get fired but he's now going to be paying that off for I don't know how long. It shouldn't be that difficult to live here.


The solution to fix healthcare is easy. Non-profit hospitals can only be non-profit if they charge medicare prices for everyone. I bet that bill would have been like 9k on medicare prices.


Medicare rates are subsidized by the government. I guess the magical federal money machine should keep printing on overdrive at a time when both parties are looking to make spending cuts.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 10:28 am

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:You'd think we had a nation of people living in old refrigerator boxes under freeway overpasses if you listened to some folks.

On any given day in this country there are over 600,000 people who can be classified as 'homeless'. That's equivalent to a city the size of Washington D.C. or Boston.



You convienently left off the first sentence in my post:

How many people do you know who work 40 hours a week and don't have everything on that list?


I'm sure that there are some "working homeless" but I don't think it's anywhere near 600,000.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu May 16, 2013 10:31 am

thepittman wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:I know someone who's wife delivered a baby and had a small complication requiring she stayed in the hospital for a couple of days. The guy's company recently changed insurers to save money, of course, as many companies across the US do these days, so the thing ended up not being covered and he got a bill for about $100,000. He went in with tears in his eyes and had a blowout with his bosses. Luckily, he didn't get fired but he's now going to be paying that off for I don't know how long. It shouldn't be that difficult to live here.


The solution to fix healthcare is easy. Non-profit hospitals can only be non-profit if they charge medicare prices for everyone. I bet that bill would have been like 9k on medicare prices.


Medicare rates are subsidized by the government. I guess the magical federal money machine should keep printing on overdrive at a time when both parties are looking to make spending cuts.


They are not subsidized. Medicare rates are just the rates that the hospital can charge government. Just like how an insurance company negotiates rates, so does medicare. Medicare rates are generally way better than insurance rates, since they have a HUGE pool of people they are negotiating for. If someone without insurance were to be charged medicare rates, the government would pay nothing, and the person would benefit by paying out of pocket the same that the government would pay if they were on medicare.

Hospital rates are based on BIGFOOT LANDING ON MARS AND FARTING OUT A PRICELIST. Seriously, they are based on absolutely nothing. Someone back in 1958 set a book of prices, and they set it to increase by X% every year and now adays you are paying $50 for an aspirin, $90 for a REUSABLE SHEET. Someone with insurance or medicare is paying way way way less.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:43 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:
thepittman wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:I know someone who's wife delivered a baby and had a small complication requiring she stayed in the hospital for a couple of days. The guy's company recently changed insurers to save money, of course, as many companies across the US do these days, so the thing ended up not being covered and he got a bill for about $100,000. He went in with tears in his eyes and had a blowout with his bosses. Luckily, he didn't get fired but he's now going to be paying that off for I don't know how long. It shouldn't be that difficult to live here.


The solution to fix healthcare is easy. Non-profit hospitals can only be non-profit if they charge medicare prices for everyone. I bet that bill would have been like 9k on medicare prices.


Medicare rates are subsidized by the government. I guess the magical federal money machine should keep printing on overdrive at a time when both parties are looking to make spending cuts.


They are not subsidized. Medicare rates are just the rates that the hospital can charge government. Just like how an insurance company negotiates rates, so does medicare. Medicare rates are generally way better than insurance rates, since they have a HUGE pool of people they are negotiating for. If someone without insurance were to be charged medicare rates, the government would pay nothing, and the person would benefit by paying out of pocket the same that the government would pay if they were on medicare.

Hospital rates are based on BIGFOOT LANDING ON MARS AND FARTING OUT A PRICELIST. Seriously, they are based on absolutely nothing. Someone back in 1958 set a book of prices, and they set it to increase by X% every year and now adays you are paying $50 for an aspirin, $90 for a REUSABLE SHEET. Someone with insurance or medicare is paying way way way less.



I'm guessing you've never taken any economic classes if you don't understand why services under high demand and skills that are in low availability would increase costs.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu May 16, 2013 10:50 am

thepittman wrote:I'm guessing you've never taken any economic classes if you don't understand why services under high demand and skills that are in low availability would increase costs.


If your economics class can justify $50 aspirins and $90 charges for resusable items, then clearly that must have been the economics class taught at Enron.

However even Enron economic theory does not apply when the consumer must have the item OR THEY WILL DIE, and the seller doesn't even tell you the cost until you have already purchased it.

And the hospitals are perfectly fine making profit off of all of their medicare patients and insured patients, why do the uninsured have to pay 10x more than the *insurance company* pays?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu May 16, 2013 10:51 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:You'd think we had a nation of people living in old refrigerator boxes under freeway overpasses if you listened to some folks.

On any given day in this country there are over 600,000 people who can be classified as 'homeless'. That's equivalent to a city the size of Washington D.C. or Boston.



You convienently left off the first sentence in my post:

How many people do you know who work 40 hours a week and don't have everything on that list?


I'm sure that there are some "working homeless" but I don't think it's anywhere near 600,000.

I conveniently left it off because it is non sequitur to assert that the people talking about the conditions of the working poor are referring to people living in refrigerator boxes.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 10:55 am

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:You'd think we had a nation of people living in old refrigerator boxes under freeway overpasses if you listened to some folks.

On any given day in this country there are over 600,000 people who can be classified as 'homeless'. That's equivalent to a city the size of Washington D.C. or Boston.



You convienently left off the first sentence in my post:

How many people do you know who work 40 hours a week and don't have everything on that list?


I'm sure that there are some "working homeless" but I don't think it's anywhere near 600,000.

I conveniently left it off because it is non sequitur to assert that the people talking about the conditions of the working poor are referring to people living in refrigerator boxes.


We are living in the best possible time in history for humanity. Everything is available to you in this country and if you think you are living rough, you haven't visited the rest of the world.
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