LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed May 22, 2013 8:13 am

Patético Madrid.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed May 22, 2013 8:16 am

I thought you were going to make a crack about Spanish cheese.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed May 22, 2013 8:31 am

Great article by the Economist making the obvious but important comparison between Assange and the AP reporter Rosen; as well as critique of the MSM who cheer-led or ignored our government's assailing of Assange.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... an_assange

The mainstream press, regardless of ideological colouration, has reacted with uniform anger to the revelation of the buried years-old co-conspiracy theory the government used to get its search warrant on Mr Rosen. The New Yorker's Ryan Lizza has been tweeting furiously about it. There was no such solidarity in reaction to the government's open, public accusations against Mr Assange. Indeed, Fox News commentators were dismissive of Mr Assange's free-speech claims; further on the right, the Washington Times* ran an op-ed piece advocating that Mr Assange be assassinated, and National Review Online's Jonah Goldberg wondered puckishly why he wasn't dead already. Yet Mr Assange's actions were formally exactly the same as those of Fox News's Mr Rosen: he encouraged an American official to leak top-secret information, and then he published it.

What we are seeing here is basically class solidarity on the part of the mainstream press. When the offender was just a weird foreign hacker running a blog staffed with encryption-happy radical volunteers, people who thought of themselves as regular journalists were often disdainful of the effort and ambivalent about how the government treated him. Yes, he felt the full force of the US government come down on his strange white-blonde head, had his money flows interdicted, and ended up as an international pariah, but you know, what he did was pretty shady, right? But now that it seems the US government has leveled the same charges, for the same behaviour, against someone working in the classic model of mainstream American journalism, a regular old reporter like us—well, that's another story.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed May 22, 2013 10:09 am

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... press-more

The search warrant filed to investigate the Fox News reporter James Rosen proved as many had suspected: President Obama wants to make it a crime for a reporter to talk to a leaker. It is a further example of how President Obama will surely pass President Richard Nixon as the worst president ever on issues of national security and press freedom.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed May 22, 2013 10:15 am

Reading Jeremy Scahill's book, Dirty Wars. While there are a few qualifiers he uses which tend to cast certain Dems (Bill Clinton) in a more favorable historic light than they perhaps deserve, it is a pretty great book.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Wed May 22, 2013 10:33 am

redwill wrote:Do yinz think that maybe the political organization of the U.S. is out-of-date? Should we instead just be one big country, as opposed to a collection of states?

Or not? The argument that government is better when it governs closer to the people holds water. So why not extend that a bit? Why not break the sub-federal government down into smaller bits? Say, regional collections of counties with like-minded interests? Fifty states? Why not five hundred states? Why is one better than another?

It seems kind of silly to be using these political divisions that were decided (in many cases) rather arbitrarily a century or more ago.

Why not let PA break up into East, Central, and West? Why not let western Kansas have its wish to separate from the East? Why not chuck Florida altogether? (That last one's a joke, but I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the idea.)


maybe we should let states choose their own "super conferences" to do business with and against other conferences of states.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed May 22, 2013 11:22 am

Sarcastic wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:I wouldn't mind my child having a homosexual gym teacher any more (or less) than I would mind my child having a homosexual classmate in that same gym class. Which is to say I wouldn't mind it, period.


What if he were like really really really really really flamboyant and wearing pink and waving the hand around and talking with the lisp?

There are other kinds?

columbia wrote:Spain just spent $680 million on a submarine that can’t swim
http://qz.com/86988/spain-just-spent-68 ... cant-swim/

#spanisharmada

I don't know much about naval architecture, but I do believe buoyancy is a fairly important attribute for a nautical vessel to possess.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed May 22, 2013 11:27 am

GaryRissling wrote:Great article by the Economist making the obvious but important comparison between Assange and the AP reporter Rosen; as well as critique of the MSM who cheer-led or ignored our government's assailing of Assange.

The revelry with which Assange is heralded is getting quite annoying.

Any confluence of Julian Assange and 'good' is entirely incidental.

GaryRissling wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/05/21/obama-the-media-and-national-security/only-nixon-harmed-a-free-press-more

The search warrant filed to investigate the Fox News reporter James Rosen proved as many had suspected: President Obama wants to make it a crime for a reporter to talk to a leaker. It is a further example of how President Obama will surely pass President Richard Nixon as the worst president ever on issues of national security and press freedom.

The Obama administration has brought more criminal prosecutions against leakers and whistleblowers than any preceding administration in history. However, Obama is not unilaterally wielding executive power in a vacuum. That power was granted to him by a complicit Congress genuflecting before the almighty temple of National Security. That's why Republicans on the Hill don't really have that much stomach for this scandal.... which is a shame, because of the three controversies of the day, this is the only one that 1) has any merit, and 2) will have any lasting effect.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed May 22, 2013 11:40 am

tifosi77 wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:Great article by the Economist making the obvious but important comparison between Assange and the AP reporter Rosen; as well as critique of the MSM who cheer-led or ignored our government's assailing of Assange.

The revelry with which Assange is heralded is getting quite annoying.

Any confluence of Julian Assange and 'good' is entirely incidental.


I don't agree with that at all. Wikileaks is been an unequivocally good and absolutely necessary outlet for exposing corruption.

GaryRissling wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/05/21/obama-the-media-and-national-security/only-nixon-harmed-a-free-press-more

The search warrant filed to investigate the Fox News reporter James Rosen proved as many had suspected: President Obama wants to make it a crime for a reporter to talk to a leaker. It is a further example of how President Obama will surely pass President Richard Nixon as the worst president ever on issues of national security and press freedom.

The Obama administration has brought more criminal prosecutions against leakers and whistleblowers than any preceding administration in history. However, Obama is not unilaterally wielding executive power in a vacuum. That power was granted to him by a complicit Congress genuflecting before the almighty temple of National Security. That's why Republicans on the Hill don't really have that much stomach for this scandal.... which is a shame, because of the three controversies of the day, this is the only one that 1) has any merit, and 2) will have any lasting effect.[/quote]

___

...but it is solely the discretion of Obama's DOJ to pursue these persecutions/prosecutions. I don't think there would be an audible clamor if the admin held to precedent instead.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Wed May 22, 2013 12:44 pm

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation


So this Lerner lady, if she has done nothing illegal or wrong according to her opening statement, is not being called for a capital or infamous crime unless this is bigger than what it appears and she already today lied under oath then and nothing else of the 5th remotely applies then how can she plead the 5th?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed May 22, 2013 12:57 pm

I'm not trying to diminish the press "issue", but did they legally do anything wrong?
(That's a poor standard, naturally.)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Wed May 22, 2013 1:07 pm

Willie Kool wrote:
columbia wrote:The Clovis?

Go ahead, laugh now. When the white walkers come, you'll be begging for someone that can make those clovis points.


Working on my flint knapping skillz now.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Wed May 22, 2013 1:10 pm

columbia wrote:I'm not trying to diminish the press "issue", but did they legally do anything wrong?
(That's a poor standard, naturally.)


The way they are supposed to subpoena is they bring evidence to a grand jury. That never happened because they didn't want to agencies to know they were being monitored. In James Rosen's case they used a law that is intended to be used on the leakers, not the press and it's never been used against the press before.

Unfortunately no one seems to know anything about this though so Holder can't answer who chose this direction, if it was legal or anything else. Awesome :roll:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed May 22, 2013 1:12 pm

Ok, so it's as squishy as it seems.

It's like the yahoos who created and extended the Patriot Act never expected any (further) abuses. :roll:
Last edited by columbia on Wed May 22, 2013 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Wed May 22, 2013 1:13 pm

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Wed May 22, 2013 1:20 pm

DelPen wrote:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation


So this Lerner lady, if she has done nothing illegal or wrong according to her opening statement, is not being called for a capital or infamous crime unless this is bigger than what it appears and she already today lied under oath then and nothing else of the 5th remotely applies then how can she plead the 5th?


So, she didn't lie or break any rules or laws, but will not answer questions in an effort to prevent self-incrimination. Safe to assume that her ties are far deeper into the administration than anyone is willing to report, since she is also the chief administrator of the Affordable Care Act for the IRS. Likely that her testimony would lead to an indictment of more people than just Lois Lerner.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed May 22, 2013 1:58 pm

GaryRissling wrote:I don't agree with that at all. Wikileaks is been an unequivocally good and absolutely necessary outlet for exposing corruption.

1) It has been highly equivocal.

2) Your point doesn't conflict with my assertion that any objective good that has resulted from the existence of the organization has been largely accidental.

GaryRissling wrote:...but it is solely the discretion of Obama's DOJ to pursue these persecutions/prosecutions. I don't think there would be an audible clamor if the admin held to precedent instead.

There has been no real precedent along these lines because the power that gives the executive this kind of discretion has only existed for a few years. (Which is why, in part, there have been so many prosecutions recently.)

But it is important to note that there is a huge difference between 'leakers' and a 'whistleblowers'. The former, in many cases, are acting criminally and deserve to have the weight of the law brought down upon their skulls. The latter, in many cases, are the opposite and therefore deserve to have the full weight of the law protecting them. In the case of the AP wire taps, we seem to be talking mostly about the former.

columbia wrote:I'm not trying to diminish the press "issue", but did they legally do anything wrong?
(That's a poor standard, naturally.)

That's actually what's so scandalous..... that the acts were likely fully compliant with the law.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:I wouldn't mind my child having a homosexual gym teacher any more (or less) than I would mind my child having a homosexual classmate in that same gym class. Which is to say I wouldn't mind it, period.


What if he were like really really really really really flamboyant and wearing pink and waving the hand around and talking with the lisp?

There are other kinds?


Yes and plenty. Some you can't tell they're gay. That's what I really like and if that was the majority - maybe it is, i don't know - and how it was portrayed in the media, there probably wouldn't have been such an uproar about any of this gay stuff.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed May 22, 2013 2:40 pm

DelPen wrote:
columbia wrote:I'm not trying to diminish the press "issue", but did they legally do anything wrong?
(That's a poor standard, naturally.)


The way they are supposed to subpoena is they bring evidence to a grand jury. That never happened because they didn't want to agencies to know they were being monitored. In James Rosen's case they used a law that is intended to be used on the leakers, not the press and it's never been used against the press before.

Unfortunately no one seems to know anything about this though so Holder can't answer who chose this direction, if it was legal or anything else. Awesome :roll:

As far as I know, there have only been two previous third party* prosecutions under the Espionage Act, both of which were AIPAC employees who received confidential policy information from a DoD analyst. The charges were brought in 2005 and ultimately dropped in 2009.

The problem in the Rosen case is that there's every likelihood that he will never be - and was never intended to be - indicted with a crime and that his name was added to the affidavit to solely improve the chances of obtaining a search warrant. (A criminal conspiracy is much sexier than your garden variety 'leak'.)


* In this context "third party" means recipients of the classified information, rather than the people divulging the classified information. Robert Novak should thank his lucky stars that Obama wasn't president in 2003. :wink:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed May 22, 2013 7:18 pm

Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_ ... deral-loan
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed May 22, 2013 7:20 pm

columbia wrote:Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_ ... deral-loan


That's good news. I still think the majority of the green subsidies are busts, but success stories like these are nice to see.

I think the problem with the DOE program is that it was pretty free with dishing out millions of dollars without being too thorough in their investigation. Gee, sounds familiar.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed May 22, 2013 7:23 pm

And too thorough in other investigations. :pop: :scared:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:04 pm

Gaucho wrote:Patético Madrid.

:lol:

It took me a second to realize what you did there. But I see it.

columbia wrote:Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_ ... deral-loan

Their HQ/factory thing is at the Hawthorne airport just up the way from my office. They're right next door to SpaceX. When I go up there for food trucks, the place is swarming with employees of both companies decked out in branded hats and shirts and hoodies and whatnot. I rarely see any of my co-workers wearing our company's gear. There seems to be a real esprit de corps at those companies.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Thu May 23, 2013 9:30 am

Lords Call To Revive Internet Monitoring Bill After Woolwich Killing
http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/lo ... ill-117082
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Thu May 23, 2013 10:55 am

Tom Cotton 'Corruption Of Blood' Bill Would Convict Family Members Of Iran Sanctions Violators
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... _hp_ref=tw

I had to make sure that it wasn't April 1.
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