LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby doublem on Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:20 pm

if religion is the M.E reason for starting wars. what is the U.S. money, power, fun? are those better reasons?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:28 pm

GaryRissling wrote:And I would argue that it is the cultural bias against Muslims which allows us to treat this as a non-event.


We are responsible for a massive genocide, a million people +, and it's a secret genocide because no one talks about it and no one is going to prison over it. And we have the nerve to get offended at 3,000 on 9/11 or whenever a few of our people get taken by a bomber. Wow, talk about delusion and a sense of grandeur. US politics are disgusting.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:29 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:And I would argue that it is the cultural bias against Muslims which allows us to treat this as a non-event.


We are responsible for a massive genocide, a million people +, and it's a secret genocide because no one talks about it and no one is going to prison over it. And we have the nerve to get offended at 3,000 on 9/11 or whenever a few of our people get taken by a bomber. Wow, talk about delusion and a sense of grandeur. US politics are disgusting.


To be fair, the taking of innocent lives either through intent or wantonness is always offensive. But yeah, there is an inhuman lack of outrage or even empathy when the innocent lives taken happen to be muslim.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:42 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:There is precisely one religion on the planet where criticizing it, in any way, can lead to your eventual murder.


Amish
Spoiler:
Wait, no... they just cut off your beard. :)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:44 pm

Eh--this could very well be religion's "last hurrah" anyway.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:56 pm

While I was looking up comparisons between our perception of the Japanese during WWII and Muslims today, I came across this photo essay of Japanese internment from The Atlantic.

Several of these pics were taken by Ansel Adams. Powerful stuff:

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011 ... ns/100132/
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:58 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:And I would argue that it is the cultural bias against Muslims which allows us to treat this as a non-event.


We are responsible for a massive genocide, a million people +, and it's a secret genocide because no one talks about it and no one is going to prison over it. And we have the nerve to get offended at 3,000 on 9/11 or whenever a few of our people get taken by a bomber. Wow, talk about delusion and a sense of grandeur. US politics are disgusting.


the people in the towers and planes were most likely NOT responsible for genocide.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby jf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:53 pm

GaryRissling wrote:While I was looking up comparisons between our perception of the Japanese during WWII and Muslims today, I came across this photo essay of Japanese internment from The Atlantic.

Several of these pics were taken by Ansel Adams. Powerful stuff:

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011 ... ns/100132/

Since you are an apologist for U.S. foreign policy , I was going to ask you yesterday if you thought the U.S. was responsible for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor . Maybe I don't need to ask .
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:10 pm

Kaizer wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:And I would argue that it is the cultural bias against Muslims which allows us to treat this as a non-event.


We are responsible for a massive genocide, a million people +, and it's a secret genocide because no one talks about it and no one is going to prison over it. And we have the nerve to get offended at 3,000 on 9/11 or whenever a few of our people get taken by a bomber. Wow, talk about delusion and a sense of grandeur. US politics are disgusting.


the people in the towers and planes were most likely NOT responsible for genocide.


I don't know what that has to do with anything. Neither were guilty the 750,000 kids we starved to death or many of the people we kill today when we have drones blow up entire houses with women and children inside. We put so much political pressure on, the world has gone silent while we murder civilians and innocents. Nobody is justifying 9/11. But we killed first. 9/11 was a response. And maybe if we went after AQ for being ruthless, it should be understandable they go after our military with the road bombs and attacks on our soldiers. If we continue to go after their civilians, then why should they feel bad for going after ours? Talk about racism and a belief that a Muslim life is worth nothing. Bush and the rest of his people - and I would include Obama these days for what is going on in Pakistan.. the dude literally gave himself a license to kill - should end up on trial in the criminal court one day and be treated as war criminals. Just like AQ. Like there is a difference when a Muslim blows up some civilians with a bomb or when we use a drone and a missile on a group of dudes hanging out on a street corner and talking about soccer. If we're going to be fair, then let's be fair. Unless Whitey really is > Muslim.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:13 pm

I'm decidedly not an apologist for US foreign policy. As voting citizens of this nation, we have some nominal control over those we elect hence we should be far more critical of our own government than the governments/actors over which we have no control of nor responsibility for.

Let me ask you this: Is Iraq the only war we've lied/deceived our way in to?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:15 pm

just tossing out that the most highly decorated unit in army history was the 442nd infantry which was pretty much all japanese decendants who had family in the camps. i dont have a point to that, other than i think its pretty impressive.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:15 pm

Gary is totally against US foreign/military policy, jf.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:21 pm

GaryRissling wrote:
Let me ask you this: Is Iraq the only war we've lied/deceived our way in to?


i hear this a lot. but how was it a lie when nearly ever allied intelligence service said they were working on wmds? there are tons of quotes from president clinton and other high ranking democrats talking about sadams use of and quest for more wmds. we know he had chemical weapons. he used them on us in 91.

its pretty apparent now that they were wrong regarding nukes but that doesnt change the fact they all thought he was working on them and that he was sympethetic to anti western/anti israeli organizations.

there isnt much oil in iraq, which is the other supposed reason for invading. so what was the end game of a deception that cost thousands of lives and tarnished the image and legacies of numerous men?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:22 pm

jf wrote:...the U.S. was responsible for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor .

What do you know of the, call it, ten years immediately preceding Pearl Harbor?

I am in no way suggesting anyone is to blame for anything..... but it follows from the discussion of actions having consequences. Some can pull apart blame for that consequential action and the cause or provocation of it as two separate discussions. But it appears others cannot. To each their own.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:31 pm

pittsoccer33 wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:
Let me ask you this: Is Iraq the only war we've lied/deceived our way in to?


i hear this a lot. but how was it a lie when nearly ever allied intelligence service said they were working on wmds? there are tons of quotes from president clinton and other high ranking democrats talking about sadams use of and quest for more wmds. we know he had chemical weapons. he used them on us in 91.

its pretty apparent now that they were wrong regarding nukes but that doesnt change the fact they all thought he was working on them and that he was sympethetic to anti western/anti israeli organizations.

there isnt much oil in iraq, which is the other supposed reason for invading. so what was the end game of a deception that cost thousands of lives and tarnished the image and legacies of numerous men?


First, the biggest lie wasn't about WMD's it was about the meeting in Prague between Iraqi and AQ officers and the pursuit of "yellow cake" for nukes. Those were completely unsubstantiated.

The second part of it was was the Bush admin's taking over intelligence gathering, analysis, and response from the CIA and Pentagon; allowing them to interpret raw intelligence data to suit political goals. They tortured guys until they "confirmed" a link between AQ and Iraq and provided "intel" on WMD's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Iraq
Oil reserves in Iraq will be the largest in the world according to recent geological surveys and seismic data.[1] The Iraqi government has stated that new exploration showed Iraq has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, with 150 billion barrels.[1] Officially confirmed reserves rank third largest in the world at approximately 150 billion barrels (24×109 m3).[2]
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby jf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:01 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
jf wrote:...the U.S. was responsible for the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor .

What do you know of the, call it, ten years immediately preceding Pearl Harbor?

I am in no way suggesting anyone is to blame for anything..... but it follows from the discussion of actions having consequences. Some can pull apart blame for that consequential action and the cause or provocation of it as two separate discussions. But it appears others cannot. To each their own.

The Japanese military was out of control trying to conquer China and Indonesia . They also aligned themselves with Nazi Germany . The U.S. shut off oil and steel supplies to Japan . I would say the Japanese actions had consequences .
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:10 pm

pittsoccer33 wrote:but how was it a lie when nearly ever allied intelligence service said they were working on wmds?

I suggest you Google the phrase "Downing Street Memo".

By the end of 2002, nearly every single intelligence source that had had been used (primarily by the Bush administration) in constructing the case for invasion had been completely discredited, and in at least one case proven to be a complete fabrication. The broad consensus of those in the intelligence community in this country below the level of policy makers was that Iraq had no WMD capacity, nor were there any programs in any level of production or ramp up.

You can call it a lie, or cherry picking pieces of information, or whatever. The incontrovertible fact is that the narrative of invading Iraq and deposing Hussein was supported by a less-than-complete presentation of information to the world.

pittsoccer33 wrote:he used them on us in 91.

There is no conclusive proof of this, altho it is clear that 1) Hussein had deployed such weapons to the KTO lines and 2) had authorized their use. But the Allied offensive progressed so quickly that the positions where they were cached were overrun before they could be employed.

pittsoccer33 wrote:there isnt much oil in iraq

:?:

Iraq has the third largest verified oil reserve in the entire world, with something like 160 years of production capacity at current usage rates. Undocumented claims by their government would push them well into the #1 slot if true.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:12 pm

Haha... I need to post more quickly.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pittsoccer33 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:40 pm

the number that stuck out in my head was that iraq was 13th in the world in oil production, or was, something like that. obviously there is a lot of oil, i just meant relatively.

edit - wikipedia says currently 7th
Last edited by pittsoccer33 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:41 pm

When some pundit (or me) compares NSA spying to the Stasi, it's easy to excuse as hyperbole.

...but what about when a former Stasi officer says it?

“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.

In those days, his department was limited to tapping 40 phones at a time, he recalled. Decide to spy on a new victim and an old one had to be dropped, because of a lack of equipment. He finds breathtaking the idea that the U.S. government receives daily reports on the cellphone usage of millions of Americans and can monitor the Internet traffic of millions more.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/1 ... cy-R-DR3zL#storylink=cpy


“It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used,” he said. “This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the people’s privacy is not to allow the government to collect their information in the first place.”

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/1 ... cy-R-DR3zL#storylink=cpy

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/1 ... cy-R-DR3zL
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:11 pm

Robert Scheer of TruthDig is the regular 'left' contributor to the excellent NPR (KCRW) program "Left, Right & Center". He's a bit of a blowhard, and I frankly don't like him very much. But when this story first broke he made the point that this sort of program and capability would have been the wet dream (his term) of a totalitarian government. The 'center' host of the show (Matt Miller) and the 'right' guest that week (Matthew Continetti, iirc) both laughed out loud at the suggestion of such a comparison.

I just shared that link on the show's Facebook wall, GR. I think he might be pleased (if that's the right word) to hear such confirming words from an authority on the subject.... even if said authority did not confirm what kind of dream it would have been for Stasi to have this program.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:13 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Robert Scheer of TruthDig is the regular 'left' contributor to the excellent NPR (KCRW) program "Left, Right & Center". He's a bit of a blowhard, and I frankly don't like him very much. But when this story first broke he made the point that this sort of program and capability would have been the wet dream (his term) of a totalitarian government. The 'center' host of the show (Matt Miller) and the 'right' guest that week (Matthew Continetti, iirc) both laughed out loud at the suggestion of such a comparison.

I just shared that link on the show's Facebook wall, GR. I think he might be pleased (if that's the right word) to hear such confirming words from an authority on the subject.... even if said authority did not confirm what kind of dream it would have been for Stasi to have this program.

It's so obvious, how could any argue the point?

And I Garuantee you, they aren't done yet.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:16 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Robert Scheer of TruthDig is the regular 'left' contributor to the excellent NPR (KCRW) program "Left, Right & Center". He's a bit of a blowhard, and I frankly don't like him very much. But when this story first broke he made the point that this sort of program and capability would have been the wet dream (his term) of a totalitarian government. The 'center' host of the show (Matt Miller) and the 'right' guest that week (Matthew Continetti, iirc) both laughed out loud at the suggestion of such a comparison.

I just shared that link on the show's Facebook wall, GR. I think he might be pleased (if that's the right word) to hear such confirming words from an authority on the subject.... even if said authority did not confirm what kind of dream it would have been for Stasi to have this program.

It's so obvious, how could any argue the point?

And I Garuantee you, they aren't done yet.


Are they knocking at your door because you post anti-government statements here? That would be the actions of a totalitarian government and that's the difference between what the NSA is doing and what a totalitarian regime would be doing.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:17 pm

The pizza delivery guy just knocked on my door.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:19 pm

NSA in disguise. That pizza is bugged.
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