LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:12 am

Court: Chevron Can Seize Americans' Email Data
In an almost unprecedented decision, a federal judge has allowed Chevron to subpoena Americans' private email data—and said the First Amendment doesn't apply.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... picks=true
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby meow on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:15 am

That's why I love being in the oil and gas business. :face:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:20 am

Factorial wrote:Of course I'm aware of the underground economy. You are changing the subject (as usual) from what I was responding to above.

Yes, there is an underground economy so not all "income" is reported so let's just give up on taxing people then. And why not just dissolve the government why were at it? And then everyone can arm themselves and we'll go from there.

I'm changing the subject?

Good god man.

This started with the post indicating that there was not a sufficient audit process in place to protect the "Obama Care" program from widespread abuse, you posted an article that said the government expected that the program would have no more abuse than the Federal Income Tax program.

I pointed out that 8% of GDP goes unreported just as one component of the abuse of the Federal Income tax system. That system is subject to WIDESPREAD abuse.

And *I* changed the subject?

Where did I ever advocate abolishing all taxation or abolishing all government? Talk about changing the subject.... :face:

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:32 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:Where did I ever advocate abolishing all taxation or abolishing all government? Talk about changing the subject.... :face:


That's the logical extention of your "Government can't be 100% efficient so they shouldn't do anything" line of thinking.

Of course there is fraud but you don't give up on everything because of said fraud. There's abuse in disability but you don't get rid of it for all because some abuse the system.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:43 am

Factorial wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Where did I ever advocate abolishing all taxation or abolishing all government? Talk about changing the subject.... :face:


That's the logical extention of your "Government can't be 100% efficient so they shouldn't do anything" line of thinking.

Of course there is fraud but you don't give up on everything because of said fraud. There's abuse in disability but you don't get rid of it for all because some abuse the system.


So you admit there's widespread fraud, but say it's of no concern? You're OK with another huge federal program that will be subject to widespread abuse?

Then I just don't know what to say.

Oh, and that quote of yours:

"Government can't be 100% efficient so they shouldn't do anything"


Who said that? I think you were attributing it to me, but I never said that. Are you normally in the practice of making false attributions?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:01 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Factorial wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Where did I ever advocate abolishing all taxation or abolishing all government? Talk about changing the subject.... :face:


That's the logical extention of your "Government can't be 100% efficient so they shouldn't do anything" line of thinking.

Of course there is fraud but you don't give up on everything because of said fraud. There's abuse in disability but you don't get rid of it for all because some abuse the system.


So you admit there's widespread fraud, but say it's of no concern? You're OK with another huge federal program that will be subject to widespread abuse?

Then I just don't know what to say.

Oh, and that quote of yours:

"Government can't be 100% efficient so they shouldn't do anything"


Who said that? I think you were attributing it to me, but I never said that. Are you normally in the practice of making false attributions?


Yes, Perry Mason, I admit there is fraud but there is fraud and abuse of everything everywhere.

You know I was not quoting you directly. That is the libertarian line.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Grunthy on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:17 am

the libertarian line is more states rights...
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GSdrums87 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:20 am

Grunthy wrote:the libertarian line is more states rights...

Indeed, state's rights and small government.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:26 am

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:37 pm

I think the point of debate here is that the costs associated with AHCA fraud are going to be high enough to possibily cancel out or at least mostly mitigate any benefit the act brings.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pucks_and_Pols on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:21 pm

Obamacare, when you strip away all the partisan outrage it inherently induces, seems like a fairly moderate piecemeal of reforms, regulations, subsidies, and market solutions. I don’t see it as the all encompassing boogey man that conservatives seem to want to make it out to be. Are there flaws in the system? Certainly. The individual mandate still seems, and has always seemed, rather onerous to me. But it is a necessary part of the law that seeks to stop health insurance companies from capping rates or denying coverage. Its stops people from only buying insurance once they already are sick, which undermines the essential point of the insurance system, that healthy people pay in to cover the sick with the knowledge that they one day will be in the “sick” pool themselves.

Obamacare is not a big government takeover of the healthcare system. A big government takeover would have been 100% publically funded insurance across the board while maintaining a private healthcare delivery system. The Government pays the Doctors who make the decisions for each paitient based upon best practice medicine for each individual patient regardless of cost. That is the system I would have in my ideal world. Obamacare falls quite short of that. In many ways it maintains the status quo and sometimes it frustratingly further complicates what I already view as the most inefficient healthcare system in the modern industrialized world. It very much resembles the alternate plan that the 1994 era GOP was pushing for, and of course more famously the plan that Mitt Romney ushered in as Gov of Massachusetts.

The way this practically moderate Republican plan is absolutely demonized in the right wing press; and the zealous crusade by the GOP in the House to repeatedly repeal it as a solution for literally any problem that comes up in this country, keeps me on the side of letting the system get into place before we tear it down. Lets just wait and see how good or bad this plan really is. Because it is not going away anytime soon.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:34 pm

Re: Helen Thomas and Israel

Good read. There is a massive distinction between Zionism and Judaism.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/17708-on ... len-thomas

She said out loud that the Jews should “get the hell out of Palestine” and return to Europe. Palestine is “not German, its not Polish” she added. Unfortunately, the whole thing ended up on a YouTube video. Predictably, the American Zionists jumped all over her. Several former White House operatives, who may have resented Thomas’s hard questioning of their bosses, were at the front of this charge. Lanny Davis, former Clinton White House Counsel, immediately announced that Thomas should be “stripped of her honors for having crossed the line of freedom of speech.” The attempt by supporters of Israel to exempt criticism of the Zionist State from the protections of the First Amendment of the Constitution has been ongoing. Davis added that Thomas “has shown herself to be an anti-Semtic bigot.” Another former White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer, said Thomas should be fired from her post and her White House press credentials revoked. He also called her an anti-Semitic bigot. B’nai B’rith’s international President Dennis Glick and Vice President Daneil Marlaschin accused Thomas of being an ally of Iranian President Ahmadinejad and being part of a cabal seeking to “delegitimize Israel.”


Now, since we are on the topic of bigotry, let’s consider the behavior of the Zionists in this regard. After all if one labels their critics as bigots, one should take a look at the basis for their criticism. The bitter truth is that Israeli Jews have spent the last 65 years systematically discriminating against Israeli Arabs and, as far as the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories go, they have set up a system of control that smacks of apartheid. A recent survey of Israeli Jews shows that a good number of them do not want Palestinians as neighbors or allowed to live in the same apartment blocks as they do. Israel’s school textbooks have purposely eradicated the Palestinian history of the place they now call the Jewish state.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:09 pm

Pucks_and_Pols wrote:Obamacare, when you strip away all the partisan outrage it inherently induces, seems like a fairly moderate piecemeal of reforms, regulations, subsidies, and market solutions. I don’t see it as the all encompassing boogey man that conservatives seem to want to make it out to be. Are there flaws in the system? Certainly. The individual mandate still seems, and has always seemed, rather onerous to me. But it is a necessary part of the law that seeks to stop health insurance companies from capping rates or denying coverage. Its stops people from only buying insurance once they already are sick, which undermines the essential point of the insurance system, that healthy people pay in to cover the sick with the knowledge that they one day will be in the “sick” pool themselves.

Obamacare is not a big government takeover of the healthcare system. A big government takeover would have been 100% publically funded insurance across the board while maintaining a private healthcare delivery system. The Government pays the Doctors who make the decisions for each paitient based upon best practice medicine for each individual patient regardless of cost. That is the system I would have in my ideal world. Obamacare falls quite short of that. In many ways it maintains the status quo and sometimes it frustratingly further complicates what I already view as the most inefficient healthcare system in the modern industrialized world. It very much resembles the alternate plan that the 1994 era GOP was pushing for, and of course more famously the plan that Mitt Romney ushered in as Gov of Massachusetts.

The way this practically moderate Republican plan is absolutely demonized in the right wing press; and the zealous crusade by the GOP in the House to repeatedly repeal it as a solution for literally any problem that comes up in this country, keeps me on the side of letting the system get into place before we tear it down. Lets just wait and see how good or bad this plan really is. Because it is not going away anytime soon.

:thumb:

As long as insurance is tied to employment (or, more accurately, your specific employer) we're going to have problems with both cost and coverage. And employer provided health insurance was a market response to the wage and price controls put in place during World War II as the labor market constricted by ~15 million men who went in to the military. Companies couldn't offer higher salaries to attract workers, but they could offer additional benefits - like health insurance. Unfortunately, the situation never righted itself after the war, and now it's ingrained in our system.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:27 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Pucks_and_Pols wrote:Obamacare, when you strip away all the partisan outrage it inherently induces, seems like a fairly moderate piecemeal of reforms, regulations, subsidies, and market solutions. I don’t see it as the all encompassing boogey man that conservatives seem to want to make it out to be. Are there flaws in the system? Certainly. The individual mandate still seems, and has always seemed, rather onerous to me. But it is a necessary part of the law that seeks to stop health insurance companies from capping rates or denying coverage. Its stops people from only buying insurance once they already are sick, which undermines the essential point of the insurance system, that healthy people pay in to cover the sick with the knowledge that they one day will be in the “sick” pool themselves.

Obamacare is not a big government takeover of the healthcare system. A big government takeover would have been 100% publically funded insurance across the board while maintaining a private healthcare delivery system. The Government pays the Doctors who make the decisions for each paitient based upon best practice medicine for each individual patient regardless of cost. That is the system I would have in my ideal world. Obamacare falls quite short of that. In many ways it maintains the status quo and sometimes it frustratingly further complicates what I already view as the most inefficient healthcare system in the modern industrialized world. It very much resembles the alternate plan that the 1994 era GOP was pushing for, and of course more famously the plan that Mitt Romney ushered in as Gov of Massachusetts.

The way this practically moderate Republican plan is absolutely demonized in the right wing press; and the zealous crusade by the GOP in the House to repeatedly repeal it as a solution for literally any problem that comes up in this country, keeps me on the side of letting the system get into place before we tear it down. Lets just wait and see how good or bad this plan really is. Because it is not going away anytime soon.

:thumb:

As long as insurance is tied to employment (or, more accurately, your specific employer) we're going to have problems with both cost and coverage. And employer provided health insurance was a market response to the wage and price controls put in place during World War II as the labor market constricted by ~15 million men who went in to the military. Companies couldn't offer higher salaries to attract workers, but they could offer additional benefits - like health insurance. Unfortunately, the situation never righted itself after the war, and now it's ingrained in our system.


Ingrained... is that to say that the market hasn't responded with alternatives? I'd argue that Labor Unions have seen to it that reasonable alternatives have to 'pay to play', and the regulatory bodies that exist have decreased the availability of alternatives. That is to say, our system ingrained the model we have today, not the other way around.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:11 pm

The ingraining was the market response.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:17 pm

Factorial wrote:Of course I'm aware of the underground economy. You are changing the subject (as usual) from what I was responding to above.

Yes, there is an underground economy so not all "income" is reported so let's just give up on taxing people then. And why not just dissolve the government why were at it? And then everyone can arm themselves and we'll go from there.


if EPP wont go for this, I will.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:26 pm

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:08 pm

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:16 pm

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby eddysnake on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:25 pm



that is a pretty wild story if you can find it:

Suicide bombers drove cars packed with explosives to the gates of the prison on the outskirts of Baghdad on Sunday night and blasted their way into the compound, while gunmen attacked guards with mortars and rocket-propelled grenades.

Other militants took up positions near the main road, fighting off security reinforcements sent from Baghdad as several militants wearing suicide vests entered the prison on foot to help free the inmates.

"The number of escaped inmates has reached 500, most of them were convicted senior members of al Qaeda and had received death sentences," Hakim Al-Zamili, a senior member of the security and defense committee in parliament, told Reuters


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/22/us-iraq-violence-idUSBRE96L0RM20130722
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:38 pm

I think there've been several bombings on the same day with many casualties. Iraq is such a mess.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:42 pm

Man arrested for following Joe Biden's moronic gun advice:
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washin ... gun-in-air

Remember Uncle Joe telling everyone that they didn’t need assault weapons because “"if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house”? Well, Jeffery Barton of Vancouver, Washington followed Joe’s advice and was promptly arrested for illegal discharge of a firearm.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:51 pm

So what is exactly is the, uh, moral of the story?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:45 pm

Gaucho wrote:So what is exactly is the, uh, moral of the story?

I would go with "Joe Biden is a *******."
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:53 pm

Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:So what is exactly is the, uh, moral of the story?

I would go with "Joe Biden is a *******."


Sure. Also: Instead of in the air, just shoot at potential car thieves and you'll be allright? STAND YOUR GROUND, FOR CHRISSAKES!!!

No, just kidding. Why is there a Vanvoucer in the USA?
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