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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby DelPen on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:02 pm

What I find funny is that the people championing Obama's government plan would be sh*ting bricks if it was George Bush or Sarah Palin making the policy behind the administration of the new health plan.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby bhaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:03 pm

DelPen wrote:What I find funny is that the people championing Obama's government plan would be sh*ting bricks if it was George Bush or Sarah Palin making the policy behind the administration of the new health plan.


That's the underlying problem anymore. It's now what, it's who.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:07 pm

DelPen wrote:What I find funny is that the people championing Obama's government plan would be sh*ting bricks if it was George Bush or Sarah Palin making the policy behind the administration of the new health plan.


I know I would be, because if Bush pushed something intended to help people I'd assume the Apocalypse was upon us.

If Palin is ever in a position to make national policy, regardless of what that policy might be, we'll be circling the drain anyway.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby whgnailer10 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:22 pm

doublem wrote:
whgnailer10 wrote:
pittsoccer33 wrote:entitlement programs do not lift people from poverty and they do not motivate people into prosperity even though this is how they are advertised. they create a class of people dependant on the federal government.


I wholeheartedly agree.


Just look at this, higher social expenditures equal lower poverty for children. Just as an example. This is a little old.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/e ... _06232004/

So are social programs always bad? Seem to be working in other countries.



It's not working here in Spain very well where I have spent a lot of time here the past two years. Small businesses here are being crushed and when a small business owner opens up a new business it is not expected to last very long because they cannot compete with bigger businesses.

If their social programs are working, than their unemployment rate should not be at an all-time high at 17.9%‎... mind you it was only a measly 13.8 % in January.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby bhaw on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:27 pm

whgnailer10 wrote:It's not working here in Spain very well where I have spent a lot of time here the past two years. Small businesses here are being crushed and when a small business owner opens up a new business it is not expected to last very long because they cannot compete with bigger businesses.


How is this part any different than the US? Don't something like 90% of businesses fail in their first 5 years?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:01 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
DelPen wrote:What I find funny is that the people championing Obama's government plan would be sh*ting bricks if it was George Bush or Sarah Palin making the policy behind the administration of the new health plan.


I know I would be, because if Bush pushed something intended to help people I'd assume the Apocalypse was upon us.

If Palin is ever in a position to make national policy, regardless of what that policy might be, we'll be circling the drain anyway.

That's about it and the end all as many see it. The system is broken and not just health care. The Apocalyspse is not that far off it seems.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby whgnailer10 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:04 pm

bhaw wrote:
whgnailer10 wrote:It's not working here in Spain very well where I have spent a lot of time here the past two years. Small businesses here are being crushed and when a small business owner opens up a new business it is not expected to last very long because they cannot compete with bigger businesses.


How is this part any different than the US? Don't something like 90% of businesses fail in their first 5 years?


I've known many small business owners in the US that have had their businesses for well over 30 years. Small business can thrive in the US... it's not like all small businesses go belly up. Some thrive here too... that's not the point though. I actually made the statement after talking with some friends (all of whom are Spainish citizens) here tonight and asked them their feelings on their economy.

I'm no business whiz or anything but having lived in both places I can without-a-doubt say that our small businesses are not taxed nearly the same. The taxes here are ridiculous for the average citizen let alone a business owner. Will our small businesses owners in the US be taxed more? Definitely, Obama doesn't hide that fact. If you keep taxes for small business owners lower, they have a better chance to come out with a profit and be successful sooner. It seems like simple economics to me.

Money just doesn't come out of thin air to fund our government and their programs. It comes out of our pockets. We need to do a better job as a country and make sure that our money is being wisely and properly used. Reading this bill would be a great idea.

I'm not trying to ruffle any political feathers with what I'm saying. I'm just sharing what I've seen and what has been shared with me by citizens here. Feel free to disagree. I'm not a supporter of any party; I'm a registered indie. I don't feel our best solution as a country is to root for our politicians like they are our favorite sports team. I fear party politics are really starting to divide us as a country. Sure there are issues that we are all passionate about and they may differ from mine or yours but that's ok...

Sorry that I'm ranting... thinking about this stuff at length gets me frustrated sometimes. I'm going to go have a beer or 12 now... :scared:
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby DelPen on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:07 pm

I'd like someone to compare this to the plan in Massachusettes that is now failing because they have no money to support it.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Geezer on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:07 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
DelPen wrote:What I find funny is that the people championing Obama's government plan would be sh*ting bricks if it was George Bush or Sarah Palin making the policy behind the administration of the new health plan.


I know I would be, because if Bush pushed something intended to help people I'd assume the Apocalypse was upon us.

If Palin is ever in a position to make national policy, regardless of what that policy might be, we'll be circling the drain anyway.

I'll see your Palin and raise you a Biden. :) I'm not trying to start a useless which-one-is-worse argument since Joe makes my case every time he speaks. I know that even though liberals will agree about the circling the drain opinion but there are more than a few people who know that with Pelosi and Babs Boxer making national policy we're down the drain flowing along in the sewer pipe.

I'm amazed that people think that politicians are going to solve their problems or improve a serious complex issue like heath care. The most recent concrete example of pols in action is the couple of busloads of public servants in New Jersey getting carted off last week by the police. The single concern of politicians is getting elected (re-elected). After that is accomplished comes getting cushy deals for themselves , family & cronies within the framework delivering for the interest groups that bank rolled their campaigns.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Geezer on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:09 pm

DelPen wrote:I'd like someone to compare this to the plan in Massachusettes that is now failing because they have no money to support it.

Hawaii had some limited government plan that also tanked.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby whgnailer10 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:10 pm

honestly, when is the last time government got something right?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:25 pm

MWB wrote: There are some cases, especially with older people, where surgery or invasive procedures are not worth the risk. Recovery is very difficult and not highly likely. So yes, some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication.


Who are you to say that?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:27 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
I know I would be, because if Bush pushed something intended to help people I'd assume the Apocalypse was upon us.


Very true, but at the same time, we should expect that Obama is just full of enlightened altruism and *really cares* about the *American people*?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Hockeynut! on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:30 pm

Guinness wrote:
MWB wrote: There are some cases, especially with older people, where surgery or invasive procedures are not worth the risk. Recovery is very difficult and not highly likely. So yes, some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication.


Who are you to say that?


Doctors do it all the time. My grandfather died from non-Hodgkins lymphoma. The doctors at Johns Hopkins said a bone marrow transplant might have cured his cancer but that he was too old for the procedure. He was 69. He died a few months after being denied.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:33 pm

whgnailer10 wrote:honestly, when is the last time government got something right?


Moon landing? Maybe?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:33 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:Doctors do it all the time. My grandfather died from non-Hodgkins lymphoma. The doctors at Johns Hopkins said a bone marrow transplant might have cured his cancer but that he was too old for the procedure. He was 69. He died a few months after being denied.


That's not the point. There's a different relationship between a doctor and patient and some random person making a statement in support of some bureaucrat who thinks that "some people" are "better off" just dying off. Who is MWB to sit here and say, "some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication"?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:33 pm

Guinness wrote:
MWB wrote: There are some cases, especially with older people, where surgery or invasive procedures are not worth the risk. Recovery is very difficult and not highly likely. So yes, some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication.


Who are you to say that?


Maybe he works for an insurance company, because they do it all the time.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:34 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
whgnailer10 wrote:honestly, when is the last time government got something right?


Moon landing? Maybe?


Meh.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:34 pm

Guinness wrote:That's not the point. There's a different relationship between a doctor and patient and some random person making a statement in support of some bureaucrat who thinks that "some people" are "better off" just dying off.


Which private insurer are you with that doesn't employ bureaucrats? I need to get me some of that insurance. :D
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:35 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Guinness wrote:
MWB wrote: There are some cases, especially with older people, where surgery or invasive procedures are not worth the risk. Recovery is very difficult and not highly likely. So yes, some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication.


Who are you to say that?


Maybe he works for an insurance company, because they do it all the time.


He's a teacher.

So the solution is to change the unsympathetic and uniformed bureaucrat making the decision?

edit to correct: :lol: freudian slip - that should be "uninformed", rather than uniformed. :)
Last edited by Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:35 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Guinness wrote:That's not the point. There's a different relationship between a doctor and patient and some random person making a statement in support of some bureaucrat who thinks that "some people" are "better off" just dying off.


Which private insurer are you with that doesn't employ bureaucrats? I need to get me some of that insurance. :D


See above response.

Great solution to the health care "crisis".
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:38 pm

Guinness wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Maybe he works for an insurance company, because they do it all the time.


He's a teacher.

So the solution is to change the unsympathetic and uniformed bureaucrat making the decision?


I don't know what the solution is, but it puzzles me why when anybody talks about a public HC option you get all this ZOMG SOME BUREAUCRAT IS GONNA TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T GET talk, as though you don't already have that going on with every private insurer. It's not a credible argument against the public option; which is not to say that there aren't some credible arguments against it.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:39 pm

Geezer wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:
DelPen wrote:What I find funny is that the people championing Obama's government plan would be sh*ting bricks if it was George Bush or Sarah Palin making the policy behind the administration of the new health plan.


I know I would be, because if Bush pushed something intended to help people I'd assume the Apocalypse was upon us.

If Palin is ever in a position to make national policy, regardless of what that policy might be, we'll be circling the drain anyway.

I'll see your Palin and raise you a Biden. :) I'm not trying to start a useless which-one-is-worse argument since Joe makes my case every time he speaks. I know that even though liberals will agree about the circling the drain opinion but there are more than a few people who know that with Pelosi and Babs Boxer making national policy we're down the drain flowing along in the sewer pipe.

I'm amazed that people think that politicians are going to solve their problems or improve a serious complex issue like heath care. The most recent concrete example of pols in action is the couple of busloads of public servants in New Jersey getting carted off last week by the police. The single concern of politicians is getting elected (re-elected). After that is accomplished comes getting cushy deals for themselves , family & cronies within the framework delivering for the interest groups that bank rolled their campaigns.


What do you do then? Just throw up our hands and let the market fix itself? Who is going to fix health care? Are the insurance companies going to do it themselves? If it is so complex why has every other nation in the world figured some system that is better than the U.S. system? If you want to call the politicians self interested in keeping there jobs fine, but don't act like this is to complex to figure out.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Guinness on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:46 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:I don't know what the solution is, but it puzzles me why when anybody talks about a public HC option you get all this ZOMG SOME BUREAUCRAT IS GONNA TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T GET talk, as though you don't already have that going on with every private insurer. It's not a credible argument against the public option; which is not to say that there aren't some credible arguments against it.


Agreed, but at the same time, there are people who just reflexively respond to any "broke" system with a government solution, ignoring the many, many pitfalls that entails, not the least of which is the fact that one bureaucrat is replace with another.

How about a (wait for it... WAIT for it...) free-market solution!? :D
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:49 pm

Guinness wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:I don't know what the solution is, but it puzzles me why when anybody talks about a public HC option you get all this ZOMG SOME BUREAUCRAT IS GONNA TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T GET talk, as though you don't already have that going on with every private insurer. It's not a credible argument against the public option; which is not to say that there aren't some credible arguments against it.


Agreed, but at the same time, there are people who just reflexively respond to any "broke" system with a government solution, ignoring the many, many pitfalls that entails, not the least of which is the fact that one bureaucrat is replace with another.

How about a (wait for it... WAIT for it...) free-market solution!? :D


What is the free market solution? Out-of-state competition? How does that get more people insured?
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