LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:13 pm

Troy Loney wrote:So we're advocating terrorism in here now?

To be perfectly honest, yeah, a little bit.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:17 pm

Troy Loney wrote:it's a terrorist attack. using other language like "citizen uprising" is not going to sit well with most people.

So in your mind Eygpt, Libya and Syria are also Terrorism and not citizen uprisings?
It's semantics.
The act of citizens fighting back against a tyrannical government is what the 2A is all about.
Call it what you want to call it.

What's offensive is the characterization that I supported McVieghs actions against those who were at the Murrah building that fateful day.

And again, anyone who doesn't think TMc was retaliating for Waco and Ruby Ridge has not a clue about what happened in OKC.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Troy Loney on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:25 pm

I'm not going to tell you what you were thinking. I'll just tell you that you seem to be implying that McVeigh was just responding to what the government did and might have been justified.

But yeah, I already stopped caring, i'm not going to engage with you in a convo about your character.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:29 pm

I'd say there's a difference between thousands of people rising up in protest against a dictator and some solitary psychopath killing innocent citizens for whatever reason.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:29 pm

Troy Loney wrote:I'll just tell you that you seem to be implying that McVeigh was just responding to what the government did and might have been justified.

That's as blatantly offensive to me as Tifs comments.
I clearly stated that I "WAS NOT SAYING THAT WHAT TIMOTHY MCVEIGH DID WAS APPROPRIATE"

Your attempts to spin that are extremely offensive to me.

And it most definitely is a case of you trying to tell me what I was thinking even though I clearly stated otherwise.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:04 pm

I'd posit that the "government is so tyrannous, that we can conceive scenarios where killing politicians would be necessary" factor contributes to libertarians losing elections.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:16 pm

columbia wrote:I'd posit that the "government is so tyrannous, that we can conceive scenarios where killing politicians would be necessary" factor contributes to libertarians losing elections.

As opposed to AGs who sanction events such as Waco and Ruby Ridge giving rise to the Libertarian school of thought? (Not to mention the current AG's getting completely away with "Fast and Furious").

Why is it OK for our politicians to kill its citizens with none of them being held accountable in a court of law.

I submit that the more politicians get away with these, well, lets call them what they are, government sanctioned murders, the more the libertarian school of thought will rise.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:33 pm

I certainly don't want the thread to be put in jeopardy, but I think we can all comport ourselves as adults here, even if we occasionally use harsh tones.

Whether you say McVeigh's actions were appropriate or condemnable, calling it a 'citizen uprising' ascribes to those actions a measure of legitimacy and tacit support. True, you never affirmatively stated support, but you also didn't say it was abhorrent or criminal, or even bad.... just that it was merely 'inappropriate', as if all McVeigh did was accidentally fart in the middle of a sales meeting. The ambiguity of that post was amplified by the rhetorical question "[W]hat is the appropriate response?", seemingly in genuine surprise that blowing up office buildings might be considered rude in certain company. And in the context of your discussions about 9/11, such...... rationalization gives rise to a fair degree of incongruity between the two points of view.

You can walk it back and proclaim your outrage for being called out for it, but you cannot reasonably expect remarks like that to go unchallenged.

I certainly can't speak to what's in your heart, or the motivating intent behind your posts. But your curious choice of words and subsequent commentary on the matter implies that 'citizen uprising' is the libertarian equivalent of *nudge*wink*.

It's the Chris Rock defense. "I'm not saying anyone should bomb buildings full of civilians and children in response to actions to which those people had no direct or even indirect culpability or influence..... but I understand."
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:16 pm

I don't know maybe his choice of words wasn't that great but I think in the context of what was being talked about (citizens right for guns, why and the constitution)I get what was trying to be said. Not really offended at all. It was pretty obvious to me the point that was trying to be made.

I disagree with the example mostly because in the case of OKC it was more a terrorist act in response to government actions, not a reasons for citizens to defend themselves or overthrow an out of control government.

Regardless of the what the constitution says there is quite a few statistics out there in various settings and countries of what does or does not happen. I just when wish when people in general debated this topic they were more informed and far less emotional.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:24 pm

man, i wish i'd been here today for this one.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:36 pm

We've previously known that certain drugs work really great at things other than their original purpose. Viagra, for example, was being developed as a blood pressure medication when the researches found out it had..... other properties. Well, this one might take the cake....

Foot cream kills HIV by tricking cells to commit suicide
Though the research has yet to be performed on people, Ciclopirox completely eradicates HIV from cell cultures -- and the virus doesn't bounce back when the drug is stopped.

***********

The researchers said that one aspect of HIV that makes it particularly persistent, even in the face of strong antiviral treatments, is its ability to disable a cell's altruistic suicide pathway -- which is typically activated when a cell is damaged or infected. In other words, infected cells that would normally commit suicide to spare healthy cells no longer pull any altruistic kamikaze missions. Ciclopirox tricks these cells back into their old ways with a double negative, disabling the disabling of the suicide pathway.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bhaw on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:37 pm

They didn't release all the details today, but I got probably half of the necessary info. My per paycheck premium on my 2014 health insurance goes up $20. Not horrible, but instead of having that price for a decent copay plan, it switches to a high deductible HSA plan at that price. I can't afford for anyone to get sick in my family. 3rd kid is out of the question.

Anyone want to chime in on what options I might have or how this helps anything?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:41 pm

tifosi77 wrote:We've previously known that certain drugs work really great at things other than their original purpose. Viagra, for example, was being developed as a blood pressure medication when the researches found out it had..... other properties. Well, this one might take the cake....

Foot cream kills HIV by tricking cells to commit suicide
Though the research has yet to be performed on people, Ciclopirox completely eradicates HIV from cell cultures -- and the virus doesn't bounce back when the drug is stopped.

***********

The researchers said that one aspect of HIV that makes it particularly persistent, even in the face of strong antiviral treatments, is its ability to disable a cell's altruistic suicide pathway -- which is typically activated when a cell is damaged or infected. In other words, infected cells that would normally commit suicide to spare healthy cells no longer pull any altruistic kamikaze missions. Ciclopirox tricks these cells back into their old ways with a double negative, disabling the disabling of the suicide pathway.


That's pretty awesome.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:52 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/25/double-down-obamacare-will-increase-avg-individual-market-insurance-premiums-by-99-for-men-62-for-women/?partner=yahootix

Some good information at this link. This is going to be the crowning "achievement" of the eight years of the Obama Administration and their allies in Congress. What a legacy to leave behind.

Based on a Manhattan Institute analysis of the HHS numbers, Obamacare will increase underlying insurance rates for younger men by an average of 97 to 99 percent, and for younger women by an average of 55 to 62 percent. Worst off is North Carolina, which will see individual-market rates triple for women, and quadruple for men.


“Premiums nationwide will also be around 16 percent lower than originally expected,” HHS cheerfully announces in its press release. But that’s a ruse. HHS compared what the Congressional Budget Office projected rates might look like—in 2016—to its own findings. Neither of those numbers tells you the stat that really matters: how much rates will go up next year, under Obamacare, relative to this year, prior to the law taking effect.

Former Congressional Budget Office director Douglas Holtz-Eakin agrees. “There are literally no comparisons to current rates. That is, HHS has chosen to dodge the question of whose rates are going up, and how much. Instead they try to distract with a comparison to a hypothetical number that has nothing to do with the actual experience of real people.”


Image


My mom (retired) got a notice that her Highmark plan would be cancelled Jan. 1 due to changes required by the Affordable Healthcare Act.

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:53 pm

I heard the Navy Yard shooter left a note about radio waves driving him to do what he did. I guess you can't blame him for doing what he did considering he thought he was being controlled by radio waves.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:55 pm

Public radio waves, I suppose.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:16 pm

Yeah, Forbes has no bias here......


About 25 million people are expected to enroll in exchange plans by 2018, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Insurers are barred from denying coverage or raising premiums for people in poor health, or charging women more than men, common practices now. Under the law, they can charge their oldest customers a maximum of three times the price for their youngest ones, a narrower difference than in many states today.

Rand Corp. researchers, looking at 10 states, said in an Aug. 29 report that predictions of sharp increases in premiums were overstated. “Our analysis found no widespread trend toward sharply higher prices in the individual market,” Christine Eibner, a Rand senior economist, said in a statement with the report.

The lowest monthly premium for a 40-year-old in the 17 states surveyed by Kaiser would be $146 in Baltimore. If that 40-year-old had an annual income of $29,000, government subsidies would reduce the monthly cost to $111, according to the report from the nonprofit health-research group.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-0 ... finds.html
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:07 pm

bhaw wrote:They didn't release all the details today, but I got probably half of the necessary info. My per paycheck premium on my 2014 health insurance goes up $20. Not horrible, but instead of having that price for a decent copay plan, it switches to a high deductible HSA plan at that price. I can't afford for anyone to get sick in my family. 3rd kid is out of the question.

Anyone want to chime in on what options I might have or how this helps anything?


isn't the government paying for everything? I thought that's what was happening. Free healthcare and stuff...
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bhaw on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:45 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
bhaw wrote:They didn't release all the details today, but I got probably half of the necessary info. My per paycheck premium on my 2014 health insurance goes up $20. Not horrible, but instead of having that price for a decent copay plan, it switches to a high deductible HSA plan at that price. I can't afford for anyone to get sick in my family. 3rd kid is out of the question.

Anyone want to chime in on what options I might have or how this helps anything?


isn't the government paying for everything? I thought that's what was happening. Free healthcare and stuff...



Where do you think we live? Canada?

Honestly, my new company plan is a problem. It's the current copay plan premium (deductible is 1250 for individual and 2500 per family) on a high deductible plan. They didn't have the deductible info yet, but I guessing $10k. How the hell can anyone afford to put $575 of their monthly income into that plan then pay 100% out of pocket up to 10k? How is anything fixed with this?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:15 pm

Then go to the exchange and get your insurance there.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bhaw on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:21 pm

Factorial wrote:Then go to the exchange and get your insurance there.


Yeah, waiting until oct 1 to see what costs look like. Have a feeling it won't be much better. I can't believe this is where we are heading. I stay out of the political stuff. It's just disappointing that America has allowed this to happen. Hard work? Yeah, we penalize you for it. Don't want to work? Perfect... We got everything you need.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:41 pm

So, healthcare if only for the gainfully employed? That's the problem.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bhaw on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:58 pm

Factorial wrote:So, healthcare if only for the gainfully employed? That's the problem.


In socialism, you're correct. The health care system is awful either way. But I fail to see how you can justify that those who work hard should be paying more for their health care to fund it for those who choose to do nothing. Notice I'm intentionally leaving out those who can't work. They already had a system (that was also broken).

Just so we're clear... if one of my kids got sick, I likely couldn't afford to pay the hospital bill on my new plan. On my old plan, I could. So this "fix" took someone who could pay their medical bills and made them unable to. If you could provide how that logically makes sense to fix something, please explain. We already know those who don't make money couldn't afford to pay the bills. It appears all we are doing is providing insurance for people who couldn't pay for it anyways and just making us feel better about it b/c they will default on less medical debt. But we are just taking that debt and shifting it to others who won't be able to pay for it and default on it as well. We've just shifted the issue from one group to another.

Also, health care could not be denied to anyone. So your question isn't valid. A hospital can't turn you away.

Again, I'm not going too far down the rabbit hole because I now have to figure out what I can do so I don't have to decide whether I can afford to take my kids to the doctor or not when they are sick. I guess for you, that is justified by the fact that someone else who chooses not to work is now relieved of that stress.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby bhaw on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:16 am

Also, I'm typing this just pissed off at what I have to deal with now. So my view is going to be over the top right now. I'm paying more for significantly worse coverage.

My hope is that the exchange provides some viable alternatives. But no one knows yet b/c there is no pricing available until October. So everything is guess and conjecture. All early signs point to this being a significant burden on the working class. I'm also lucky enough to earn just over what the cutoff is for government assistance on the marketplace options (literally over by like $4k).
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:41 am

bhaw wrote:Also, I'm typing this just pissed off at what I have to deal with now. So my view is going to be over the top right now. I'm paying more for significantly worse coverage.

My hope is that the exchange provides some viable alternatives. But no one knows yet b/c there is no pricing available until October. So everything is guess and conjecture. All early signs point to this being a significant burden on the working class. I'm also lucky enough to earn just over what the cutoff is for government assistance on the marketplace options (literally over by like $4k).

If you live in DC pricing won't be available until November because they're navigator portal still isn't ready.
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