LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:17 pm

pensfan1989 wrote:I find it hard to believe there are people who can function in society without a photo ID these days. You need one to fly, take Amtrak, cash a check, rent a movie, use a credit card in many cases, open a bank account, drive, and on and on.

Secondly, if it is such a pain for those without ID to get one, even if it is offered free, how do they get to the polling places?


Probably not a big deal to get one for most people. Really affects the elderly more than anyone. Those who may not travel much, have had a bank account for many, many years, and don't drive anymore.

Btw, rent movies? I don't know that there are many places you can do that anymore. And the only time I ever need a photo if when I use a CC is if they care I haven't signed the back.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Grunthy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:10 am

MWB wrote:
redwill wrote:
Grunthy wrote:Stop making asinine remarks it doesn't help your "argument"


OK. In future I'll submit my remarks to your asinine-o-meter prior to posting.

EDIT: Scratch that.


I thought your post was made sense because birth certificates and ss cards don't have photos, which is what most want with new voter id laws. That's just me though.


I think it is rather obvious I was saying you could use those as IDs for voting if you don't have a photo ID. Redwill just likes to think he is clever.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby IamtheWaris on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:14 am

tifosi77 wrote:
IamtheWaris wrote:Wow you must really live in the boonies if when you go to vote you don't have to wait in line. Last election I had to wait a good 30 minutes to cast my vote. I guess that can be considered disenfranchisement right? The impatient are disenfranchised.

Actually, I live in the second largest city in the U.S.... and as I sit here thinking about it, I can't recall ever waiting more than about four or five minutes to vote since I moved here in 1997.

The line I was talking about was the line to get the ID that allows you to stand in the line to vote.


You missed the point I was making. Isn't standing in line to vote disenfranchising them? They can stand in one line but not the other? Maybe Sid can solve this whole mess by escorting the elderly to the DMV with him.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:31 am

Pitt87 wrote:More of an argument for an updating voting process -- early, offsite, etc. -- than against voter ID. In fact, if can resolve many of the discrimination claims that seem to pop up in the days following a national election, also.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but........ how does voter ID work into modified voting procedures? For example, in the 2012 election I voted by mail for the first time ever. It was sweet. How am I supposed to use a voter ID in that situation in a way that doesn't completely negate the advantages/purposes of voting by mail? I think Oregon does vote by mail exclusively.

And also note that a lot of the recent voter ID legislation is not only requiring the IDs but it's also severely clamping down on those alternate means of casting a vote.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:34 am

IamtheWaris wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
IamtheWaris wrote:Wow you must really live in the boonies if when you go to vote you don't have to wait in line. Last election I had to wait a good 30 minutes to cast my vote. I guess that can be considered disenfranchisement right? The impatient are disenfranchised.

Actually, I live in the second largest city in the U.S.... and as I sit here thinking about it, I can't recall ever waiting more than about four or five minutes to vote since I moved here in 1997.

The line I was talking about was the line to get the ID that allows you to stand in the line to vote.


You missed the point I was making. Isn't standing in line to vote disenfranchising them? They can stand in one line but not the other? Maybe Sid can solve this whole mess by escorting the elderly to the DMV with him.

Well that certainly doesn't help. Look at the measures passed in TX, and how their new voter laws completely screw over areas with high populations of racial minorities. I think one study showed that majority white populations will have one polling place for every 1,500 voters and majority African American populations will have one polling place for every 12,000 voters, or something like that. It's ludicrous and patently obvious that 'preserving the integrity of the electoral process' is nothing more than a side-effect.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:40 am

pensfan1989 wrote:I find it hard to believe there are people who can function in society without a photo ID these days. You need one to fly, take Amtrak, cash a check, rent a movie, use a credit card in many cases, open a bank account, drive, and on and on.

Secondly, if it is such a pain for those without ID to get one, even if it is offered free, how do they get to the polling places?

And yet they exist by the hundreds of thousands if not millions nationwide. My great grandmother passed away in 1996 at the age of 98 and I don't think she ever had a photo ID in her life. Granted, that was nearly 20 years ago and pre-9/11. But it's really not that hard to imagine. Estimates in PA last year ranged from there being tens of thousands to over 750,000 people who didn't have adequate photo ID, and that's in PA alone.

Now think of the PA voter ID law a bit more. Consider how different the logistics of an election are versus the DMV (where you had to go to obtain the requisite ID). There might be a polling place open up across the street from your house, or two blocks over or whatnot; you can walk to it. Voting precincts are relatively small specifically for the purpose of making it easier for people to vote by increasing the distribution of polling places. Conversely, there are entire counties in PA that are serviced by a single DMW office, and that office may have irregular hours. Total, there are only 71 places in a state of 12.7 million people where you can go obtain a voter ID card. (If you take the worst-case estimate, that's over 10,000 people per office coming in just for voter ID cards) 13 counties have a DMV office that's only open one day a week, and in 10 others they're only open two days a week, and nine counties don't have any locations at all. These offices may be 30 or 40 miles away, and if you don't have a photo ID that means you don't have a drivers license, which means getting yourself to this office to get your ID is probably going to be pretty burdensome. (Not just for the voter, but also for the person who assists them) And if for whatever reason you don't have a Social Security card or copy of your birth certificate, you then have to go to those offices and apply for replacements, with the attendant wait times (and fees), before you can even make the trip to the DMW.

And I've seen the argument made that tying voting rights to forms of ID that require fees to renew is effectively a poll tax. I don't totally buy into that argument, since the voter ID cards themselves are free. But if obtaining the voter ID card is so burdensome, then it's really just a case of a six and two threes.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby IamtheWaris on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:49 am

Every argument I have seen against voter ID strikes me as desperate attempt at delaying the inevitable........logic prevailing. I don't care about polling places being too crowded, that is a separate issue. If you want to discuss that separately that is fine. But I have yet to see any strong arguments against voter IDs being required.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pensfan1989 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:35 am

tifosi77 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:I find it hard to believe there are people who can function in society without a photo ID these days. You need one to fly, take Amtrak, cash a check, rent a movie, use a credit card in many cases, open a bank account, drive, and on and on.

Secondly, if it is such a pain for those without ID to get one, even if it is offered free, how do they get to the polling places?

And yet they exist by the hundreds of thousands if not millions nationwide. My great grandmother passed away in 1996 at the age of 98 and I don't think she ever had a photo ID in her life. Granted, that was nearly 20 years ago and pre-9/11. But it's really not that hard to imagine. Estimates in PA last year ranged from there being tens of thousands to over 750,000 people who didn't have adequate photo ID, and that's in PA alone.

Now think of the PA voter ID law a bit more. Consider how different the logistics of an election are versus the DMV (where you had to go to obtain the requisite ID). There might be a polling place open up across the street from your house, or two blocks over or whatnot; you can walk to it. Voting precincts are relatively small specifically for the purpose of making it easier for people to vote by increasing the distribution of polling places. Conversely, there are entire counties in PA that are serviced by a single DMW office, and that office may have irregular hours. Total, there are only 71 places in a state of 12.7 million people where you can go obtain a voter ID card. (If you take the worst-case estimate, that's over 10,000 people per office coming in just for voter ID cards) 13 counties have a DMV office that's only open one day a week, and in 10 others they're only open two days a week, and nine counties don't have any locations at all. These offices may be 30 or 40 miles away, and if you don't have a photo ID that means you don't have a drivers license, which means getting yourself to this office to get your ID is probably going to be pretty burdensome. (Not just for the voter, but also for the person who assists them) And if for whatever reason you don't have a Social Security card or copy of your birth certificate, you then have to go to those offices and apply for replacements, with the attendant wait times (and fees), before you can even make the trip to the DMW.

And I've seen the argument made that tying voting rights to forms of ID that require fees to renew is effectively a poll tax. I don't totally buy into that argument, since the voter ID cards themselves are free. But if obtaining the voter ID card is so burdensome, then it's really just a case of a six and two threes.


While it might be 30-40 miles to a DMV, how do these people, who don't drive, get things like groceries, go to the bank, get to a doctors office, etc? Your example of your great grandmother is irrelevant, since that was so long ago. The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open. I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The ID is free. And it is just as burdensome for me to go to the DMV to renew my license and registration every year because of the lines as it would be for someone to get an ID.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:52 am

pensfan1989 wrote:While it might be 30-40 miles to a DMV, how do these people, who don't drive, get things like groceries, go to the bank, get to a doctors office, etc? Your example of your great grandmother is irrelevant, since that was so long ago. The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open. I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The ID is free. And it is just as burdensome for me to go to the DMV to renew my license and registration every year because of the lines as it would be for someone to get an ID.


My grandmother died just 3 years ago. She never drove and never had a photo ID yet she never had any issues cashing checks, etc. She lived in a rural area where everyone knew each other. She also never missed an election in her life.

I don't think the comparison to renewing your license is valid as driving isn't a right.

I personally don't care whether about voter ID either way, but pretending that it won't be an inconvenience to many elderly people, most of whom have been dedicated voters their entire lives, is being pretty shortsighted.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:18 pm

Can those people acquire a state issued a photo ID in a four year period of time?

#MountainsoutofMoleHills
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:36 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:While it might be 30-40 miles to a DMV, how do these people, who don't drive, get things like groceries, go to the bank, get to a doctors office, etc? Your example of your great grandmother is irrelevant, since that was so long ago. The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open. I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The ID is free. And it is just as burdensome for me to go to the DMV to renew my license and registration every year because of the lines as it would be for someone to get an ID.


My grandmother died just 3 years ago. She never drove and never had a photo ID yet she never had any issues cashing checks, etc. She lived in a rural area where everyone knew each other. She also never missed an election in her life.

I don't think the comparison to renewing your license is valid as driving isn't a right.

I personally don't care whether about voter ID either way, but pretending that it won't be an inconvenience to many elderly people, most of whom have been dedicated voters their entire lives, is being pretty shortsighted.


I think its shortsighted to assume that old people generally don't have a photo ID. She would also need to register for an email address in order to qualify for certain services today. Rules change over time, and its not discriminatory if governing bodies make every effort to make required resources available and them.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby skullman80 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:45 pm

Lots of things are inconveniences. It happens. That being said if you are given 4 years to get an ID, that should be doable for everyone. Yes it may be an inconvenience, but sometimes you just have to deal with it.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:01 pm

Yippee ... The new Federal Reserve Chairman lives in Bizerk-e-ly - i'm sure that she'll keep a tight reign on the money supply :face:

Bye bye "dual mandate"
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:02 pm

skullman80 wrote:Lots of things are inconveniences. It happens. That being said if you are given 4 years to get an ID, that should be doable for everyone. Yes it may be an inconvenience, but sometimes you just have to deal with it.


this. maybe if someone is so old they cant go anywhere, just let them do it from the mail or something. maybe send someone over to them to take their picture. if they have that much time it can be done, no matter how much they dont want some new fangled card with their name on it.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:16 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Can those people acquire a state issued a photo ID in a four year period of time?

#MountainsoutofMoleHills

Four years? One would hope.

A couple months? No.

#MoleHillsoutofMountains

Pitt87 wrote:Rules change over time, and its not discriminatory if governing bodies make every effort to make required resources available and them.

This is precisely the problem..... the governments are not making every effort to make the required resources available. Again, referencing the PA law, PennDOT's own estimation was that they had the capacity to satisfy less than 10% of the demand in time for the 2012 election. Which, as I recall, was a big determining factor in getting the law struck (or at least delayed in terms of the 2012 election cycle).
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:20 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Can those people acquire a state issued a photo ID in a four year period of time?

#MountainsoutofMoleHills

Four years? One would hope.

A couple months? No.

#MoleHillsoutofMountains

Pitt87 wrote:Rules change over time, and its not discriminatory if governing bodies make every effort to make required resources available and them.

This is precisely the problem..... the governments are not making every effort to make the required resources available. Again, referencing the PA law, PennDOT's own estimation was that they had the capacity to satisfy less than 10% of the demand in time for the 2012 election. Which, as I recall, was a big determining factor in getting the law struck (or at least delayed in terms of the 2012 election cycle).

We're talking 2012? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

My recollection is that the folks who are complaining about this - those folks did pretty well in the 2012 elections, no?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:22 pm

Kaizer wrote:
skullman80 wrote:Lots of things are inconveniences. It happens. That being said if you are given 4 years to get an ID, that should be doable for everyone. Yes it may be an inconvenience, but sometimes you just have to deal with it.


this. maybe if someone is so old they cant go anywhere, just let them do it from the mail or something. maybe send someone over to them to take their picture. if they have that much time it can be done, no matter how much they dont want some new fangled card with their name on it.

LOL... Already done. It's called an absentee ballot.

#AnotherReasonThisIsaRidiculousDiscussion
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:25 pm

pensfan1989 wrote:The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open.

I'm not entirely sure of the numbers on this one, but I don't know how many elderly people are opening brand new checking accounts. Maybe that number has gone up in recent years, thanks to the '08 financial meltdown. But if they've had a checking account for five decades...

pensfan1989 wrote:I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The commonwealth's own data showed that 758,000 eligible voters had no PennDOT ID that would satisfy the requirements of the law. That's nearly 10% of the whole electorate. (In Philly it was closer to 20%.) Letters were sent to all of the names on that list and 150,000 were 'undeliverable', which means a potential population still in the 600,000 range. PennDOT further stated that around half a million people had the requisite ID, but it was expired. These folks might not have the same burdens of getting themselves out to a DMV office that an elderly person might face, but that's still half a million more people trying to access an already over-burdened fulfillment system.

Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters. Prorate that nationwide, and it's not all that hard to get to a million or two people.

And remember - these are the actual numbers and estimates from the state body charged with executing the law, not from a voting rights advocacy group or the ACLU. This is PennDOT.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:29 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open.

I'm not entirely sure of the numbers on this one, but I don't know how many elderly people are opening brand new checking accounts. Maybe that number has gone up in recent years, thanks to the '08 financial meltdown. But if they've had a checking account for five decades...

pensfan1989 wrote:I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The commonwealth's own data showed that 758,000 eligible voters had no PennDOT ID that would satisfy the requirements of the law. That's nearly 10% of the whole electorate. (In Philly it was closer to 20%.) Letters were sent to all of the names on that list and 150,000 were 'undeliverable', which means a potential population still in the 600,000 range. PennDOT further stated that around half a million people had the requisite ID, but it was expired. These folks might not have the same burdens of getting themselves out to a DMV office that an elderly person might face, but that's still half a million more people trying to access an already over-burdened fulfillment system.

Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters. Prorate that nationwide, and it's not all that hard to get to a million or two people.

And remember - these are the actual numbers and estimates from the state body charged with executing the law, not from a voting rights advocacy group or the ACLU. This is PennDOT.

Your assuming that everyone of those people would pursue getting an ID. Since the turnout rate is far far far lower than that, it's not a valid argument.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:30 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open.

I'm not entirely sure of the numbers on this one, but I don't know how many elderly people are opening brand new checking accounts. Maybe that number has gone up in recent years, thanks to the '08 financial meltdown. But if they've had a checking account for five decades...

pensfan1989 wrote:I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The commonwealth's own data showed that 758,000 eligible voters had no PennDOT ID that would satisfy the requirements of the law. That's nearly 10% of the whole electorate. (In Philly it was closer to 20%.) Letters were sent to all of the names on that list and 150,000 were 'undeliverable', which means a potential population still in the 600,000 range. PennDOT further stated that around half a million people had the requisite ID, but it was expired. These folks might not have the same burdens of getting themselves out to a DMV office that an elderly person might face, but that's still half a million more people trying to access an already over-burdened fulfillment system.

Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters. Prorate that nationwide, and it's not all that hard to get to a million or two people.

And remember - these are the actual numbers and estimates from the state body charged with executing the law, not from a voting rights advocacy group or the ACLU. This is PennDOT.


I assume even if you have an account you need an ID to get money. Unless we assume old people never go into a bank because they are using ATMs or mobile apps exclusively?

This is all besides the point anyways - it's just fodder and excuses to avoid the rational conclusions - it's not hard to get an ID and voting is pretty much the only ID free activity known to man.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:36 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open.

I'm not entirely sure of the numbers on this one, but I don't know how many elderly people are opening brand new checking accounts. Maybe that number has gone up in recent years, thanks to the '08 financial meltdown. But if they've had a checking account for five decades...

pensfan1989 wrote:I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The commonwealth's own data showed that 758,000 eligible voters had no PennDOT ID that would satisfy the requirements of the law. That's nearly 10% of the whole electorate. (In Philly it was closer to 20%.) Letters were sent to all of the names on that list and 150,000 were 'undeliverable', which means a potential population still in the 600,000 range. PennDOT further stated that around half a million people had the requisite ID, but it was expired. These folks might not have the same burdens of getting themselves out to a DMV office that an elderly person might face, but that's still half a million more people trying to access an already over-burdened fulfillment system.

Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters. Prorate that nationwide, and it's not all that hard to get to a million or two people.

And remember - these are the actual numbers and estimates from the state body charged with executing the law, not from a voting rights advocacy group or the ACLU. This is PennDOT.

Your assuming that everyone of those people would pursue getting an ID. Since the turnout rate is far far far lower than that, it's not a valid argument.

Umm....

tifosi77 wrote:Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters.


And if you're talking about the half a million who had expired IDs, PA had a turnout rate of ~60% in 2012. So instead of 500,000, let's talk about 300,000. So between the former and the latter, we're back to 500,000 people likely seeking IDs.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby jf on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:39 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:While it might be 30-40 miles to a DMV, how do these people, who don't drive, get things like groceries, go to the bank, get to a doctors office, etc? Your example of your great grandmother is irrelevant, since that was so long ago. The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open. I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The ID is free. And it is just as burdensome for me to go to the DMV to renew my license and registration every year because of the lines as it would be for someone to get an ID.


My grandmother died just 3 years ago. She never drove and never had a photo ID yet she never had any issues cashing checks, etc. She lived in a rural area where everyone knew each other. She also never missed an election in her life.

I don't think the comparison to renewing your license is valid as driving isn't a right.

I personally don't care whether about voter ID either way, but pretending that it won't be an inconvenience to many elderly people, most of whom have been dedicated voters their entire lives, is being pretty shortsighted.

By the sound of your grandmother's character , she probably would have had no problem with the idea that she had to get a photo ID to vote . The notion that is an inconvenience to get a photo id to vote is just an excuse . My mother who is 76 has to show her photo id when using a check and she has no problem with it . Public transportation is available for those that say that is an inconvenience to get to a DMV.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:39 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open.

I'm not entirely sure of the numbers on this one, but I don't know how many elderly people are opening brand new checking accounts. Maybe that number has gone up in recent years, thanks to the '08 financial meltdown. But if they've had a checking account for five decades...

pensfan1989 wrote:I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The commonwealth's own data showed that 758,000 eligible voters had no PennDOT ID that would satisfy the requirements of the law. That's nearly 10% of the whole electorate. (In Philly it was closer to 20%.) Letters were sent to all of the names on that list and 150,000 were 'undeliverable', which means a potential population still in the 600,000 range. PennDOT further stated that around half a million people had the requisite ID, but it was expired. These folks might not have the same burdens of getting themselves out to a DMV office that an elderly person might face, but that's still half a million more people trying to access an already over-burdened fulfillment system.

Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters. Prorate that nationwide, and it's not all that hard to get to a million or two people.

And remember - these are the actual numbers and estimates from the state body charged with executing the law, not from a voting rights advocacy group or the ACLU. This is PennDOT.

Your assuming that everyone of those people would pursue getting an ID. Since the turnout rate is far far far lower than that, it's not a valid argument.

Umm....

tifosi77 wrote:Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters.


And if you're talking about the half a million who had expired IDs, PA had a turnout rate of ~60% in 2012. So instead of 500,000, let's talk about 300,000. So between the former and the latter, we're back to 500,000 people likely seeking IDs.

Probably poorly stated, but, what I'm putting forth is that the type of individual without an ID probably has a lower turnout rate than even that. And it's not a strain to the system for them to have spread that out over the period we've been arguing about this.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:41 pm

While we’re talking grandparents, my grandmother died two years ago at age 100, and she had a photo ID until the very end. In fact, even after she stopped driving in her 80s she went and got (and maintained) one of the non-license photo IDs from PennDOT just so she could cash checks and the like.

Besides, if you have a grandma or grandpa who can’t vote because they don’t have a photo ID, you should stop being a lazy, bad grandkid and drive them down to the DMV so they can get one. And while you’re at it, pull up your pants and get a haircut.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Troy Loney on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:51 pm

Shyster wrote:While we’re talking grandparents, my grandmother died two years ago at age 100, and she had a photo ID until the very end. In fact, even after she stopped driving in her 80s she went and got (and maintained) one of the non-license photo IDs from PennDOT just so she could cash checks and the like.

Besides, if you have a grandma or grandpa who can’t vote because they don’t have a photo ID, you should stop being a lazy, bad grandkid and drive them down to the DMV so they can get one. And while you’re at it, pull up your pants and get a haircut.


My grandfather turned 105 in june. He still religioulsy gets his state issued ID renewed when it's expired. It's not a capability question. I think he just does it to not lose touch with life. It serves no purpose for him, people shouldn't be forced to do that. A SSN# and voter registration should be plenty IMO.
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