LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby jf on Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:51 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:The elderly, who probably get Social Security checks, either have to cash those or have direct deposit, so they have a bank account, which, since 9/11, requires an ID to open.

I'm not entirely sure of the numbers on this one, but I don't know how many elderly people are opening brand new checking accounts. Maybe that number has gone up in recent years, thanks to the '08 financial meltdown. But if they've had a checking account for five decades...

pensfan1989 wrote:I just don't believe that there are millions of people here, legally, who can vote, and don't have an ID of some kind.

The commonwealth's own data showed that 758,000 eligible voters had no PennDOT ID that would satisfy the requirements of the law. That's nearly 10% of the whole electorate. (In Philly it was closer to 20%.) Letters were sent to all of the names on that list and 150,000 were 'undeliverable', which means a potential population still in the 600,000 range. PennDOT further stated that around half a million people had the requisite ID, but it was expired. These folks might not have the same burdens of getting themselves out to a DMV office that an elderly person might face, but that's still half a million more people trying to access an already over-burdened fulfillment system.

Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters. Prorate that nationwide, and it's not all that hard to get to a million or two people.

And remember - these are the actual numbers and estimates from the state body charged with executing the law, not from a voting rights advocacy group or the ACLU. This is PennDOT.

Your assuming that everyone of those people would pursue getting an ID. Since the turnout rate is far far far lower than that, it's not a valid argument.

Umm....

tifosi77 wrote:Estimates applying actual voter turnout to possession of an adequate ID puts the number at around 4%, which is still ~200,000 voters.


And if you're talking about the half a million who had expired IDs, PA had a turnout rate of ~60% in 2012. So instead of 500,000, let's talk about 300,000. So between the former and the latter, we're back to 500,000 people likely seeking IDs.

It is called personal responsibility , if you want to vote just go get the Id . Just do what it takes .
jf
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:27 pm
Location: Butler

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:13 pm

Does everyone who thinks people show have to show a photo ID to vote also agree that citizens should have to show a photo ID before buying a hunting rifle or shotgun? Just curious.

Like I said, I don't really care as it doesn't affect me (and yeah, I know that makes me lame).
Hockeynut!
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,056
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:39 pm

Don't you have to be 18 to purchase a rifle or shotgun or at least have a parent or guardian present?
PensFanInDC
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 27,914
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:28 pm
Location: Fredneck

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Grunthy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:42 pm

If you are buying from a licensed dealer you have to show an ID.
Grunthy
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,328
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:45 pm

It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.
PensFanInDC
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 27,914
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:28 pm
Location: Fredneck

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:52 pm

Grunthy wrote:If you are buying from a licensed dealer you have to show an ID.

And fill out multiple forms, and submit to a background check. Some states (like IIRC Illinois and New Jersey) require purchasers to obtain a card in advance of buying anything (Illinois, for example, calls it a Firearm Owner Identification or FOID card). Gun purchasers also pay for the background check and purchase application. In PA, there's a $2 fee for the instant check and a $3 fee for "telephone costs."
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,754
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:11 pm

The question was do you believe you should have to show ID to get a hunting rifle of shotgun, not whether or not you actually do.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:23 pm

tifosi77 wrote:The question was do you believe you should have to show ID to get a hunting rifle of shotgun, not whether or not you actually do.


Yep. If someone agrees that ID should be shown to buy a weapon, which we have the right to own (provided we don't have a sketchy background), then I have no problem with that person also believing a person should show an ID to cast a vote in an election.
Hockeynut!
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,056
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:25 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.
PensFanInDC
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 27,914
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:28 pm
Location: Fredneck

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:52 pm

jf wrote:It is called personal responsibility , if you want to vote just go get the Id . Just do what it takes .


Why isn't having an SS card or a birth certificate along with a voter ID card personally responsible enough?
MWB
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,748
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:12 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.


Actually, I think it's quite relevant. There are some people in the country who think it should be more difficult (i.e., some people will have to take an extra step) for people to vote. Some of those same people also believe government shouldn't interfere with gun ownership, and that it should be easier to obtain a gun. I don't know that anyone here thinks that, but there is a certain segment of the population that does. I don't really see a logical reason for that thought process.
MWB
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,748
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:15 pm

MWB wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.


Actually, I think it's quite relevant. There are some people in the country who think it should be more difficult (i.e., some people will have to take an extra step) for people to vote. Some of those same people also believe government shouldn't interfere with gun ownership, and that it should be easier to obtain a gun. I don't know that anyone here thinks that, but there is a certain segment of the population that does.

Anyone who thinks the requirements to vote should be stricter than the requirements to own a gun... Nah, we'd only be talking about less than .001 percent of the population. Not worth the time.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:19 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
MWB wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.


Actually, I think it's quite relevant. There are some people in the country who think it should be more difficult (i.e., some people will have to take an extra step) for people to vote. Some of those same people also believe government shouldn't interfere with gun ownership, and that it should be easier to obtain a gun. I don't know that anyone here thinks that, but there is a certain segment of the population that does.

Anyone who thinks the requirements to vote should be stricter than the requirements to own a gun... Nah, we'd only be talking about less than .001 percent of the population. Not worth the time.


That's not what I typed. I typed that some believe it should be more difficult than it currently is to vote, and easier than it currently is to obtain a gun legally. That percentage is certainly more than .001.
MWB
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,748
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby IamtheWaris on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:25 pm

MWB wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.


Actually, I think it's quite relevant. There are some people in the country who think it should be more difficult (i.e., some people will have to take an extra step) for people to vote. Some of those same people also believe government shouldn't interfere with gun ownership, and that it should be easier to obtain a gun. I don't know that anyone here thinks that, but there is a certain segment of the population that does. I don't really see a logical reason for that thought process.


Once again if you want to debate gun ownership then that is a separate issue.

If making elections more legitimate by reducing voter fraud requires an extra step then so be it. I wonder if people complained when seat belts were invented because it was an extra step to buckle in when they drove.
IamtheWaris
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:41 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:43 pm

MWB wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.


Actually, I think it's quite relevant. There are some people in the country who think it should be more difficult (i.e., some people will have to take an extra step) for people to vote. Some of those same people also believe government shouldn't interfere with gun ownership, and that it should be easier to obtain a gun. I don't know that anyone here thinks that, but there is a certain segment of the population that does. I don't really see a logical reason for that thought process.


Meh, way too simplified of an analogy. the argument over gun control compared to voting isn't related to making it more difficult.

It's to cut out potential fraud. Too wildly different things. Gun control debates go deep on so many levels. I see what you are getting at but it's not remotely the same or as easy as "people want to make it easier to have guns".

By that rationale you could compare guns to opening a bank account or renting a car.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,120
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa


Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:42 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
MWB wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It's not a very good analogy but I'll answer. No, I have no problem with photo ID being required to purchase a gun.


Actually, I think it's quite relevant. There are some people in the country who think it should be more difficult (i.e., some people will have to take an extra step) for people to vote. Some of those same people also believe government shouldn't interfere with gun ownership, and that it should be easier to obtain a gun. I don't know that anyone here thinks that, but there is a certain segment of the population that does. I don't really see a logical reason for that thought process.


Meh, way too simplified of an analogy. the argument over gun control compared to voting isn't related to making it more difficult.

It's to cut out potential fraud. Too wildly different things. Gun control debates go deep on so many levels. I see what you are getting at but it's not remotely the same or as easy as "people want to make it easier to have guns".

By that rationale you could compare guns to opening a bank account or renting a car.


Well, I agree that you could and should compare guns to opening a bank account and renting a car. But, as you say, that's different can of beans.

I just don't understand one person pushing for more government regulation on voting and that same person pushing for less government regulation on guns, which is what I believe Hockeynut was getting at. I understand the flaws of the comparison, I just don't get that thinking in its most simplified form.
MWB
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,748
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Grunthy on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:06 pm

Well if you want to go by the constitution, voting rights weren't really even added until later. The 2nd amendment predates voting rights and is included in the bill of rights, which the right to vote is not.
Grunthy
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,328
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby jf on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:20 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:Does everyone who thinks people show have to show a photo ID to vote also agree that citizens should have to show a photo ID before buying a hunting rifle or shotgun? Just curious.

Like I said, I don't really care as it doesn't affect me (and yeah, I know that makes me lame).

It does affect you when person B goes in and votes in person A's place . Your point about id to buy a gun is just a try at deflecting the discussion . The discussion is about photo Id to vote.
jf
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:27 pm
Location: Butler

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MWB on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:40 pm

Grunthy wrote:Well if you want to go by the constitution, voting rights weren't really even added until later. The 2nd amendment predates voting rights and is included in the bill of rights, which the right to vote is not.


I know, and I think that's wrong. A person's right to vote should be more sacred than the right to own a gun. Of course, I also think the various interpretations of the 2nd amendment through the courts over the years have been faulty.
MWB
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,748
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:46 pm

jf wrote:It does affect you when person B goes in and votes in person A's place . Your point about id to buy a gun is just a try at deflecting the discussion . The discussion is about photo Id to vote.


No, it's not a try at deflecting the discussion. If we need to provide photo ID for one of our rights, I think it's entirely applicable as to whether we should or should not have to provide photo ID to exercise another of our rights.
Hockeynut!
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,056
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:52 pm

MWB wrote:I just don't understand one person pushing for more government regulation on voting and that same person pushing for less government regulation on guns, which is what I believe Hockeynut was getting at. I understand the flaws of the comparison, I just don't get that thinking in its most simplified form.


Yes, in part that is what I was getting at. I just don't understand people saying, "OMG, what's the big deal about having to show a voter ID to vote? If you're too lazy to get an ID then you shouldn't be allowed to vote. Who cares if it's an inconvenience?" and then turning around and saying, "OMG, they want me to show a photo ID just to buy a hunting rifle? That's proof that the government is trying to keep us from getting guns!"

If it's no big deal to obtain and show a photo ID to vote, why is it a big deal to do the same to buy a gun?
Hockeynut!
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,056
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:53 pm

People think showing a photo ID to buy a gun is a big deal? I'm a massive 2nd amendment advocate, but I didn't realize there was that big of a resistance to it.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 60,559
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:57 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:People think showing a photo ID to buy a gun is a big deal? I'm a massive 2nd amendment advocate, but I didn't realize there was that big of a resistance to it.


I don't think I've seen anyone say that here.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,691
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:55 pm

tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,085
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


e-mail