LGP NASCAR Thread

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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:11 pm

I'm still developing my view on the incident. Bowyer's spin was egregious and undoubtedly intentional. You could dock him points, for sure, that would deter future conduct. But what if Vickers spun? Could you suspend the 55 for a race? You could fine MW too. I don't know. Newman and Gordon should both wreck the entire MWR team, too. I really like Bowyer, but MW really screwed him here. He was a championship contender (though not a favorite) and with the heat and a potential (maybe unlikely) penalty, he's in a box already.

Vickers and Bowyer pulling over and letting Logano go is less egregious, I think. The 5 and 88 would have certainly let the 24 go. Hamlin pitted early last year at Richmond to give the 18 a point (he still missed the Chase). Those moves, however, don't alter the race.

And Dear God how did they not black flag Edwards for that restart? KuBu really got screwed there.

Finally, Gil Martin (29 crew chief) tweeted after the race: The best part about the Chase is we're going to get a new champion because the current one is a tool.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby offsides on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:33 pm

Good points Hammer. Whatever or if anything at all happens, to me this stuff is a big black eye for NASCAR.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:36 pm

Bowyer already had his Chase spot secured before Richmond, so doubt they bounce him from the Chase completely. But like the 150 point Penalty he got at RCR after winning New Hampshire early in the chase a few years back, they can hit him so hard as to have no chance at the title. (In current system, a 36 point penalty would be the 150 equivalent)
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:55 pm

Ryan Newman named to drive the #31 CAT Chevy next year. Not really all that a surprise once they announced Jeff Burton was leaving, such Busch had already signed elsewhere.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:20 pm

wow. NASCAR having an 8:15pm presser tonight, still hasn't made Richmond results official. Sounds like it will be BIG.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:12 pm

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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:26 pm

The thing that gets in my craw is the one MWR driver that didn't do anything gets bounced, and the one MWR that intentionally caused the yellow has a penalty that won't impact the chase any. They should have just penalized the 15 car the number of points necessary to drop out of the top 10. He had no wins so would not have been a wildcard.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:52 pm

All it does to the 15 is sink to 7th in the final regular season points, behind Earnhardt, but he'll have 2000 points just like the 88, 78, 5 and (now) 39.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:19 pm

Completely agree. This is a terrible decision by NASCAR. Penalizing Bowyer before the Chase seeding is pathetic.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:28 pm

This was draconian. No one expected NASCAR to make this move, and I applaud them for it. A few thoughts:

First, no one expected NASCAR to make a move that approached this level. Asking for more is getting greedy. In any event, NASCAR generally limits itself to deducting points after the race. It won't reorder the drivers to replicate what it thinks should happen.

That said, we have a few parameters. Newman should have won, and Gordon should have been in, Logano and Truex out. Bowyer spun. Importantly, NASCAR did not decide the spin was bad. It only penalized the moves afterward. So, after the spin, it should have been Gordon in, Logano and Kahne the WCs, Truex and Newman out.

But limiting your remedies to docking points, which there is good reason for, you can only dock MWR drivers getting Newman in, who should have been, but not helping Gordon. It's a little odd, though, because if the the spin was legal--as NASCAR decided--then, Newman should have been out! Logano and Kahne would have been the WCs. If the spin was not (it surely wasn't), then it should be Gordon and Newman in. But that runs against the norm of only docking points, not actually reorganizing the race.

So, NASCAR did the best they could, although they probably should have called the spin illegal based on the words being used. It was so obvious. Indeed, they could have just gone ahead an issued the same penalties! The only thing they could have done, though, was punish Bowyer. That would have been justified. However, I'm not sure he was doing anything more than what he was ordered to. He regrets it, I'm sure. I can't wait to see Gordon punt him again. His and Ingrid Gordon's tweets were out of control tonight.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:38 pm

At the end of the day, reordering the race results would create an absolutely horrible precedent. People would be screaming for that power after every blown call -- restarts, wrecks, caution flags, timing lines --- everything would give cause. Limiting your own power to docking points sends a clear message, disgorges the culprits of the beneficiary, and gives one of the people the benefits he deserved.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 am

i don't disagree, hammer. No real way to help Gordon save a larger point penalty for the 15 to drop them out of the top 10.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:50 pm

I still am in awe of the 15 getting no real penalty out of it, since he'll start the Chase the same place he would have without the penalty. Not like Vickers suffered any either, since he wasn't running for Cup points this year. Thus the only real penalty is the 56, the 300k team fine, and the suspension of Ty Norris.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby sj? on Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:23 pm

Bowyer should have been kicked out of the Chase ..period .. IMHO ..
Couldn't they have reviewed the tape right before the caution or the spin & use the position of the cars to determine the result ??


Gordon got screwed !! :scared:
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:40 pm

sj? wrote:Bowyer should have been kicked out of the Chase ..period .. IMHO ..
Couldn't they have reviewed the tape right before the caution or the spin & use the position of the cars to determine the result ??


Gordon got screwed !! :scared:

That Gordon did.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:04 pm

It would be an ugly precedent for NASCAR to change a race's results.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:17 pm

Rylan wrote:It would be an ugly precedent for NASCAR to change a race's results.

The last time they did that was at the Sears Point road course in 1991. A post race penalty to Ricky Rudd of so many seconds, that put Davey Allison as the winner instead of Rudd, who crossed the start finish line first. I forgot 42 of Tommy Kendall was leading the 6 of Mark Martin with 4 to go before the two got together.

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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:20 pm

that spin was the most innocuous of turn 11 spins at Sears Point, stuff that's allowed today.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Lord, now they're investigating Penske too?
http://racing.ap.org/article/did-penske ... gano-chase
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby sj? on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:42 pm

Now NASCAR is looking into "improper communications" between Logano & Gilliland that may again shake up the Chase ...

Don't think it will change anything as I am sure others have done this before .. let a team mate pass you, lead a lap etc.



http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/na ... y/2801119/
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:42 pm

While I am completely against what Bowyer did (actually causing a caution), what's wrong with what Gilliland did? Drivers do that all the time in points races to allow their ally to lead a lap or whatever. Now it's suddenly not acceptable?
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:09 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:While I am completely against what Bowyer did (actually causing a caution), what's wrong with what Gilliland did? Drivers do that all the time in points races to allow their ally to lead a lap or whatever. Now it's suddenly not acceptable?

it's called collusion. Doesn't make it right in the past. And without the Bowyer spin, the Penske alleged incident never has a chance to occur.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:10 pm

Front Row and Penske are two different teams. It's a little different than MWR conspiring within their own team.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby Shyster on Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:58 pm

relantel wrote:Front Row and Penske are two different teams. It's a little different than MWR conspiring within their own team.

I’m not too familiar with NASCAR’s rules, but are “team orders” prohibited in the sport? I mean, I can understand outlawing an intentional spin—that’s a clear safety issue—but was it also illegal if the two drivers pitted specifically so the third team driver could gain those positions?
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:05 pm

Yes, teams always pull over for a spot--e.g., to lead a lap or to let your teammate starting second get the preferred lane on a restart, who then cedes the position so they can continue 1-2. MWR's problem was clearly on a different order of magnitude in terms of calculation. Spin to stop the leader then having two drives intentionally lose an entire lap is a bit different.

Logano's is equally horrible in that the communication implies that Gilliand and Front Row were paid to give up the spot:

"better pay big."

"The committee knows what I've been asking for," Kerr says.

"We've got the big dog and all his cronies," the spotter replies.

Kerr then says: "Travis knows what I've been asking for," an apparent reference to Penske Racing competition director Travis Geisler.

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