America's Black Projects

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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby tifosi77 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:26 pm

DocEmrick wrote:The F-22 was fitted with some kind of hydrogen powered scramjet prior to it's final development (I believe it was codnamed F-22a or something similar). It was changed to a two seater.

I find that all but impossible to believe. The material and structural changes make this a non-starter.

The two major advantages a scramjet brings are: 1) the ability to combust air that is flowing at supersonic speeds and, 2) following on to that, the ability to achieve much higher flight speeds than a ramjet aircraft can attain. However, with those higher speeds come ridiculous increases in temperature to which that the aircraft's surface is exposed.... like, well over a thousand degrees F. That requires the use of heat-resistant materials, as well as specialized design to allow for the expansion of those materials at those temps. The SR-71 was famous for leaking fluids on the ground because the aircraft was literally designed to expand and seal joints once the aircraft got to speed.

And it's not just a simple matter of putting a scramjet into a ramjet's airframe. The inlet design on a ramjet requires divergence in front of the first compressor stage (to slow the airflow to subsonic speed) and a scramjet requires a convergent nozzle (so the incoming airflow remains at supersonic speed). You need to make so many changes to accommodate that type of propulsion system that you can't really adapt an existing airframe, especially one that is on a shoestring like the Raptor. The USAF Raptor demo team doesn't even have any aircraft dedicated to them; before they can commit to a show, they have to find the closest Raptor base that has an aircraft or two available and borrow them for the duration of the show. The Air Force isn't about to take one of their very limited assets and turn it into a technology demonstrator that may or may not bear any fruit.

Hypersonic (~Mach 5+) aircraft also cruise at much higher altitudes, in part because the thinner atmosphere mitigates some of the heating effects. But once you go above ~60,000 in altitude (Armstong's Line) you are not coming back across it alive without pressurization. Why? The water in your lungs and mouth would literally boil. And that would suck. I'm not sure if tactical jet aircraft pressurize their cockpits (I don't think they do; one bullet or piece of shrapnel through the window and it would be rendered moot), but have you ever seen SR-71 aircrew? They wore frickin' space suits. (And some of them were actually awarded astronaut wings). Again, another major design change to accommodate.

Plus, it should be remembered that the F-22 can hit around Mach 1.7 without using its afterburners. (Actual number is classified, but the Raptor pilots with whom I've spoken don't bat an eye at that suggestion, so take that for what it's worth) So, absent the necessary materials changes needed to sustain the higher speeds a scramjet-powered aircraft can hit, a scramjet is of dubious benefit to a Raptor. And it is simply not feasible to make all those structural and material changes to a Raptor.

There were two X plane variants of the Raptor proposed by Lockheed-Martin; the X-44 Manta (a delta wing, tailless aircraft) and something called the FB-22 that would have been a replacement for the F-15E Strike Eagle. Neither aircraft made it off the drafting table.

Finally, 'F-22A' is the actual name of the aircraft as it has been deployed to the USAF. And currently there are a little over 100 of the beasts that have been delivered to the Air Force - all of them are accounted for, and none of them are two seaters. And none of them have hydrogen powered anythings scooting them around the sky.

In other words, I call shenanigans on your claim. :P
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby DocEmrick on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:03 pm

...maybe it wasn't the F-22 then...jeez man.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby PensFanInDC on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:41 pm

I call BS
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:29 am

Doc, while there were a couple Raptor-specific comments the whole point is that I highly doubt any aircraft was fitted with a scramjet if it wasn't designed from the outset to carry one. (for the reasons listed)

This is why so many of the stories from the Area 51/Dreamland spotters fall apart. The stuff just doesn't pass the sniff test. Sure, it's entirely possible that the Air Force did all that would be necessary to convert a Raptor into a scramjet...... but thinking about it even just a little reveals what a colossal undertaking it would be rendering the exercise prohibitively impractical.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby Juice on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 am

tifosi77 wrote:A bunch of stuff.


:scared:
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby Rylan on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:19 pm

Doc's a phony.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:55 pm

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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby roland on Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:15 am

New stuff from Lockheed Martin Skunk Works.

Carbon nanotubes used as a "skin" for an aircraft which also is able to relay data.

Planes can now "morph" or "shapeshift" as needed??




Anyone hear from Doc lately?
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby SoupOrSam on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:22 am

roland wrote:Anyone hear from Doc lately?


He's with them.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby mac5155 on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:59 am

I thought this thread was about differed areas of America
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:37 pm

roland wrote:New stuff from Lockheed Martin Skunk Works.

Carbon nanotubes used as a "skin" for an aircraft whicalso is able to relay data.

Planes can now "morph" or "shapeshift" as needed??




Anyone hear from Doc lately?

Video's kinda funny...... they talk about "what's possible" saying the airplanes are invisible to radar. They illustrate this by showcasing designs that are 1) three decades old, and 2) not invisible to radar.

As regards shape shifting designs..... as long as they remain jet powered, the inlets can't be on the top of the airframe, at least not if they want the aircraft to be able do any dynamic maneuvering.

It's a fluff piece today was more comedy than cutting-edge.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby roland on Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:55 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Video's kinda funny...... they talk about "what's possible" saying the airplanes are invisible to radar. They illustrate this by showcasing designs that are 1) three decades old, and 2) not invisible to radar.

As regards shape shifting designs..... as long as they remain jet powered, the inlets can't be on the top of the airframe, at least not if they want the aircraft to be able do any dynamic maneuvering.

It's a fluff piece today was more comedy than cutting-edge.



So what you're saying is we haven't reached this level yet:

Spoiler:
Image



Some of the comments on youtube were saying if they can't get the F35 right, how can we expect anything more from what Lockheed says?
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby viva la ben on Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:57 pm

The real black projects are all about anti gravity fields
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby count2infinity on Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:03 pm

Doc Emrick... now there's a username I haven't seen in a long time.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:17 pm

roland wrote:Some of the comments on youtube were saying if they can't get the F35 right, how can we expect anything more from what Lockheed says?


I wouldn't paint the entire company based on one high profile program. Programs run largely decoupled from the mothership organization. They are essentially stand-alone entities. I worked programs at Lockheed that were fantastic. I worked others that made me want to kill myself. I'm at Northrop now and constantly get asked "do you like it better there?". The advantages that the corporation provides are largely negligible, but I applied and hired into a program I was very experienced in, so right now my situation couldn't be better.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:57 pm

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/07/will-the-pentagon-s-secret-space-plane-ever-return-to-earth.html#url=/articles/2014/04/07/will-the-pentagon-s-secret-space-plane-ever-return-to-earth.html

The Air Force’s secret space plane has been up in orbit for nearly 500 days—a space endurance record. But nearly a year and a half into the mission, the Pentagon still won’t say what the X-37B is doing up there, or when it might come back.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby Shyster on Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:20 pm

I agree with Mr. Weeden's comments in that article. It's probably a testbed for new spy-satellite technologies, and it's ability to land means it can be upgraded and returned to orbit.
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Re: America's Black Projects

Postby Grunthy on Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:45 pm

There are things tested and built beyond what most can dream.
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