LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

[doublem]

I think Rand believed everything that she said as being "serious" but it's nothing ground breaking. She wanted to be selfish, cool. I'm fine with that, but don't try to BS people, she took S.S. and medicare, she is a hypocrite. She always talked about moral principles but couldn't even live up to the basic level that she set up for everyone else. There are far better examples for justification of anti-state principles than Rand. She is one of the best examples of a cult of personality of the 20th century.

[bh]

Its a pretty interesting read and concept. I will try to find a link to the paper -- its tough to find it online sometimes. Lynds is interesting. He stopped his formal education before graduating college (New Zealand equivalent of stopping short of a Bachelor's, I believe). Originally the response from within the physics community was that this guy was some fraud or that he was a pseudonym for another scholar.

He's written some other papers since and I think he's working on a book.

Thoughts?

Found his paper here. Will try and read it if i get time. Looks interesting. I hadn't heard of this guy before.

[shafnutz05]

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

--Stephen Hawking in a recent interview

[Kraftster]

Yes, SH will probably finally put an end to theologians citing him as a mystic with that one.

[bh]

Yes, SH will probably finally put an end to theologians citing him as a mystic with that one.

I have an Uncle with a philosophy degree and he's always told me how Hawking and Einstein were Christians. I don't get why he needs "Rock Star" scientists to be Christian to validate his own faith. Oh, and he also feels that the founders were all devout Christians as well, even though Jefferson took the Bible and reduced it to a moral handbook.

[Kraftster]

Yes, SH will probably finally put an end to theologians citing him as a mystic with that one.

I have an Uncle with a philosophy degree and he's always told me how Hawking and Einstein were Christians. I don't get why he needs "Rock Star" scientists to be Christian to validate his own faith. Oh, and he also feels that the founders were all devout Christians as well, even though Jefferson took the Bible and reduced it to a moral handbook.

Yeah, I think touting those rock star names like that is pretty silly. I can see some value in referencing big name scientists who are Christians if you encounter someone who summarily rejects religion because they "are a scientist" as a way of saying that the two do not have to be mutually exclusive, but more often than not it just seems to be some sort of trophy that theists want to show off.

[shafnutz05]

It is interesting how one side of a debate always tries to find people on the supposed "other side" that echo their views. It kind of reminds me how the Democrats and the media absolutely fell in love with John McCain (before the 2008 election, mind you). Why? Because he was a "maverick Republican" that bucked the trend by going liberal on a lot of issues. Same with Zell Miller.

[shmenguin]

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

--Stephen Hawking in a recent interview

i think fear is a big part of it, but validation is another. people want their lives to have a greater value than merely their earthly contributions.

[Kraftster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

Thoughts or should I put this in the philosophy thread?

I like it. Find myself gravitating more and more towards a scientific approach to morality.

I'm half reading On the Genealogy of Morals - Nietzsche, so I will definitely be interesting in discussing this topic.

[Point Breeze Penguins]

I'll be straight forward and open at the start of this discussion and say any objective definition of morality, good/evil, is indefensible without a Lawgiver and a Judge.

(Now to be clear that does not require a Deity, it is just as logical to say the "Lawgiver" and "Judge" is Nature itself, not that I would argue for anything other than the "Lawgiver" and "Judge" being anything other than the Trinitarian God of Christianity)

[Kraftster]

I don't know that I think there needs to be a Judge - why do you think that is necessary?

I may agree that there needs to be a "Lawgiver", though.

[Point Breeze Penguins]

By good and necessary deduction a Lawgiver is useless without a mechanism by which to guard the law given.

[Kraftster]

Even if there is no Judge to enforce, if the Law given by the Lawgiver is objectively True I think a particular act is "Good" or "Bad" regardless of whether there is enforcement of the Law.

/s most capitalized words in a sentence ever

[doublem]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

[Point Breeze Penguins]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

What would you classify as a "evolutionary/biological" law?

[doublem]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

What would you classify as a "evolutionary/biological" law?

Evolution and such.

[Point Breeze Penguins]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

What would you classify as a "evolutionary/biological" law?

Evolution and such.

That is not a law, unless of course you mean that Evolution is devoid of good/evil categories.

[Kraftster]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

What would you classify as a "evolutionary/biological" law?

Morality based upon biological motives and predispositions.

[Point Breeze Penguins]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

What would you classify as a "evolutionary/biological" law?

Morality based upon biological motives and predispositions.

I am not intending to be Socratic here but what objectively is a "biological motive or predisposition"?

For example. It would seem to me that an autonomous man is concerned with ensuring his genes be passed along to the next generation. Is that man not then doing a moral good by eliminating any interlopers that get in his way of that evolutionary/biological law?

[Kraftster]

What laws exist in "nature" besides evolutionarily/ biological ones?

What would you classify as a "evolutionary/biological" law?

Morality based upon biological motives and predispositions.

I am not intending to be Socratic here but what objectively is a "biological motive or predisposition"?

For example. It would seem to me that an autonomous man is concerned with ensuring his genes be passed along to the next generation. Is that man not then doing a moral good by eliminating any interlopers that get in his way of that evolutionary/biological law?

Well, I wasn't necessarily proclaiming any level of objectivity (not that I don't think there may be, just haven't gone there yet), was more responding to what could be classified as a evolutionary/biological law.

Principles of self-preservation, pain-avoidance and pleasure-pursuit might be examples. Personally, I think we've got similar evidence to point to group formation. You take these biological motivations and predispositions and pair them with reason and you start to see how moral codes are formed.

[doublem]

Well, I don't really mean what Kraft was saying but I could see that. I don't think highly of moral codes, I was more referencing how we have adapted and changed based on evolution and biology though, I wouldn't really call it a law like "moral codes".

[Kraftster]

Well, I don't really mean what Kraft was saying but I could see that. I don't think highly of moral codes, I was more referencing how we have adapted and changed based on evolution and biology though, I wouldn't really call it a law like "moral codes".

I wasn't thrilled with "moral code" to be honest. I just think human actions are governed by those biological things I mentioned + reason. Subtract reason and we behave like animals. With reason we see social contract because we're able to make deliberative decisions about long-term pleasure-pursuit and preservation. We restrict our freedoms more than animals because we see long-term advantage in it.

[doublem]

part 1 of 5 ep. 1/ BAFTA winner Adam Curtis takes on Ayn Rand.

[Kraftster]

part 1 of 5 ep. 1/ BAFTA winner Adam Curtis takes on Ayn Rand.

That Pong thing is really interesting.

[Troy Loney]

Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.