LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 8:36 am

Troy Loney wrote:Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.


Not really. I don't know of any Eastern Philosophers who had significant impact on the continental and/or analytic philosophy/philosophers that is taught in most American and European universities. Eastern "philosophy" that I am familiar with (not much) is steeped pretty heavily in religion and seems to have a fundamentally different purpose than "non-Eastern" philosophy -- more concerned about explaining the world based upon a "religious" view than pure rational inquiry into the world around us. This is all pretty uninformed, but its as much as I know.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 8:37 am

Kraftster wrote:
doublem wrote:


part 1 of 5 ep. 1/ BAFTA winner Adam Curtis takes on Ayn Rand. :scared:


That Pong thing is really interesting.


I watched 4/5 last night. Seems pretty well done.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed May 25, 2011 8:42 am

Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.


Not really. I don't know of any Eastern Philosophers who had significant impact on the continental and/or analytic philosophy/philosophers that is taught in most American and European universities. Eastern "philosophy" that I am familiar with (not much) is steeped pretty heavily in religion and seems to have a fundamentally different purpose than "non-Eastern" philosophy -- more concerned about explaining the world based upon a "religious" view than pure rational inquiry into the world around us. This is all pretty uninformed, but its as much as I know.


Religion or spirituality? I think those overlap at times, but at other times can be very different. I guess I want to learn/understand/apply some philosophical aspects to my life. I'm coming to understand that too many external, out of control "goods" are dictating my life. I feel like my motivation and happiness are too much dictated by external factors...

Like, in order to be happy I need to have such and such job, such and such wife, such and such car etc. I'm still trying to understand how to find those intrinsic qualities of existence that create a more natural being.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 8:46 am

Troy Loney wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.


Not really. I don't know of any Eastern Philosophers who had significant impact on the continental and/or analytic philosophy/philosophers that is taught in most American and European universities. Eastern "philosophy" that I am familiar with (not much) is steeped pretty heavily in religion and seems to have a fundamentally different purpose than "non-Eastern" philosophy -- more concerned about explaining the world based upon a "religious" view than pure rational inquiry into the world around us. This is all pretty uninformed, but its as much as I know.


Religion or spirituality? I think those overlap at times, but at other times can be very different. I guess I want to learn/understand/apply some philosophical aspects to my life. I'm coming to understand that too many external, out of control "goods" are dictating my life. I feel like my motivation and happiness are too much dictated by external factors...

Like, in order to be happy I need to have such and such job, such and such wife, such and such car etc. I'm still trying to understand how to find those intrinsic qualities of existence that create a more natural being.


Spirituality is perhaps a better way to say it. I said "religious" because that's not really precisely right. I guess spirituality is definitely better, maybe still not perfect, but I think you know what I mean. Also, I was using "philosophy" in more of a Philosophy kind of way, like term of art/the field of philosophy. There's lots of Eastern philosophy (lower case p) out there. I've always wanted an introduction to it myself, but never really met anyone that could provide me a good road map into it.

Did you watch Fight Club last night?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed May 25, 2011 8:50 am

No to fight club.


This is the outline of that reading plan book, one of the guys is an expert on eastern philosphy, so there's some of that in the actual book to go along with the traditional philosophical thinkers.
http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/grtfad4.html

in terms of that mindset i'm trying to get out of, that comes from reading De Toqueville and his explanation of American People, and also after getting into this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Wed May 25, 2011 8:56 am

Troy Loney wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.


Not really. I don't know of any Eastern Philosophers who had significant impact on the continental and/or analytic philosophy/philosophers that is taught in most American and European universities. Eastern "philosophy" that I am familiar with (not much) is steeped pretty heavily in religion and seems to have a fundamentally different purpose than "non-Eastern" philosophy -- more concerned about explaining the world based upon a "religious" view than pure rational inquiry into the world around us. This is all pretty uninformed, but its as much as I know.


Religion or spirituality? I think those overlap at times, but at other times can be very different. I guess I want to learn/understand/apply some philosophical aspects to my life. I'm coming to understand that too many external, out of control "goods" are dictating my life. I feel like my motivation and happiness are too much dictated by external factors...

Like, in order to be happy I need to have such and such job, such and such wife, such and such car etc. I'm still trying to understand how to find those intrinsic qualities of existence that create a more natural being.


If you are interested in a more "spiritual" western philosophy I'd give this a read.

http://tinyurl.com/3cnb6la
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby bh on Wed May 25, 2011 8:57 am

Troy Loney wrote:Religion or spirituality? I think those overlap at times, but at other times can be very different. I guess I want to learn/understand/apply some philosophical aspects to my life. I'm coming to understand that too many external, out of control "goods" are dictating my life. I feel like my motivation and happiness are too much dictated by external factors...

Like, in order to be happy I need to have such and such job, such and such wife, such and such car etc. I'm still trying to understand how to find those intrinsic qualities of existence that create a more natural being.

Some of the best philosophy I've read and actually enjoyed were the stoics. To me they really are more about a way of life, not pure thinking exercises like modern philosophy. I love Marcus Aurelius becuase reading his meditations you realize that people thousands of years ago had the same questions, same thoughts, and same fears of those today. Somehow I find that comforting.
This was a great easy read on implementing stoic practices into your life.

Don't know a whole lot about Eastern Philosophers though other than reading Sun Tzu and The Art of War.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed May 25, 2011 8:59 am

Point Breeze Penguins wrote:If you are interested in a more "spiritual" western philosophy I'd give this a read.

http://tinyurl.com/3cnb6la



Thank you, that book is included in that reading plan, i will bump it up on the priority list based on the suggestion.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Wed May 25, 2011 9:01 am

No prob. As far as pagan philosophers go the Stoics are #1 in my book. I have learned a lot from Marcus Aurelius. (I know Bible may not be what you are looking for but a quick read through Proverbs/Ecclesiastes also may be of help)
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby bh on Wed May 25, 2011 9:03 am

Point Breeze Penguins wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.


Not really. I don't know of any Eastern Philosophers who had significant impact on the continental and/or analytic philosophy/philosophers that is taught in most American and European universities. Eastern "philosophy" that I am familiar with (not much) is steeped pretty heavily in religion and seems to have a fundamentally different purpose than "non-Eastern" philosophy -- more concerned about explaining the world based upon a "religious" view than pure rational inquiry into the world around us. This is all pretty uninformed, but its as much as I know.


Religion or spirituality? I think those overlap at times, but at other times can be very different. I guess I want to learn/understand/apply some philosophical aspects to my life. I'm coming to understand that too many external, out of control "goods" are dictating my life. I feel like my motivation and happiness are too much dictated by external factors...

Like, in order to be happy I need to have such and such job, such and such wife, such and such car etc. I'm still trying to understand how to find those intrinsic qualities of existence that create a more natural being.


If you are interested in a more "spiritual" western philosophy I'd give this a read.

http://tinyurl.com/3cnb6la

Doh! you stole my thunder by a minute. :P
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby bh on Wed May 25, 2011 9:05 am

Point Breeze Penguins wrote:No prob. As far as pagan philosophers go the Stoics are #1 in my book. I have learned a lot from Marcus Aurelius. (I know Bible may not be what you are looking for but a quick read through Proverbs/Ecclesiastes also may be of help)

I've always looked at Job and Ecclesiastes as very Philisophical books that are different than the rest of the old testement.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 9:08 am

Troy Loney wrote:No to fight club.


This is the outline of that reading plan book, one of the guys is an expert on eastern philosphy, so there's some of that in the actual book to go along with the traditional philosophical thinkers.
http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/grtfad4.html

in terms of that mindset i'm trying to get out of, that comes from reading De Toqueville and his explanation of American People, and also after getting into this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle


Interesting, that looks like a pretty good list. Intimidating but would be sweet to do it.

I've always seemed to avoid the sort of philosophical dilemma you are dealing with, though I think I've flirted with it a few times here and there. Maybe I'm just a simple hedonist at bottom, but I've always felt like I've been able to mix material pursuits with spiritual pursuits.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 9:09 am

I need to go back to the Stoics now that I've sort of changed my philosophy on a lot of things, including rejecting the notion of free will, which they were big on based upon what I read previously from them.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed May 25, 2011 9:13 am

I've always seemed to avoid the sort of philosophical dilemma you are dealing with, though I think I've flirted with it a few times here and there. Maybe I'm just a simple hedonist at bottom, but I've always felt like I've been able to mix material pursuits with spiritual pursuits.


I feel as though material pursuits can end up being completely arbitrary and unending. I believe you really need to fully understand yourself and what makes you lead the most fulfilling life, not the most fulfilling life in terms of social norms, but in terms of your individual mind. I think a lot of american culture is based on comparing yourself to everyone and continually judging people. I don't believe it is either healthy or natural.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 9:28 am

Troy Loney wrote:
I've always seemed to avoid the sort of philosophical dilemma you are dealing with, though I think I've flirted with it a few times here and there. Maybe I'm just a simple hedonist at bottom, but I've always felt like I've been able to mix material pursuits with spiritual pursuits.


I feel as though material pursuits can end up being completely arbitrary and unending. I believe you really need to fully understand yourself and what makes you lead the most fulfilling life, not the most fulfilling life in terms of social norms, but in terms of your individual mind. I think a lot of american culture is based on comparing yourself to everyone and continually judging people. I don't believe it is either healthy or natural.


I agree with that. I was reading the wiki on Tolle, and I identify a lot with what he is saying. At some point in college, while studying with an amazing professor, I reached what you could call a sort of state of contentment. I lose sight of it from time to time, but I can usually go back to it pretty easily. At bottom it really amounts to the fact that I absolutely love myself. That may said cheesy and/or conceited, but it all really starts there. I wouldn't want to be anyone else and I wouldn't want to not be me. I love living, feeling, being -- even on the worst day filled with bad news, that I am here in the universe living and experiencing is amazing. Having the chance to be alive, even for so brief a time as we get -- that's about the greatest thing in the universe.

When people me ask me about not drinking coffee, I always joke "I'm high on life", but its a half serious answer. I don't know how anyone can need something to get going in the morning, you're up, you're alive, you have a day of life ahead of you. If you can't get up for that, then I don't know, man...

But I kind of live in my head a lot. I'm definitely really the only judge of my life that I care about. My pursuit of material things is really a means to an ends, certainly not the end in itself. I don't know... I kind of agree with the thing on Tolle's wiki that you can't really teach it. It just sort of happens. Maybe I don't really get it and I'm just crazy, but I feel like I do.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby largegarlic on Wed May 25, 2011 9:57 am

I guess I'm late to the discussion of Eastern philosophy, but I thought I would throw my two cents in.

I'm not an expert in Eastern thought by any stretch, but I would recommend the Dao De Jing and The Analects by Confucius. I read a translation of the Dao De Jing by Roger Ames (a prominent scholar who works in Eastern philosophy at the U. of Hawaii), and it has his commentary on the text as it goes along, which I found to be very helpful. The commentary helped make sense of some of the really vague, mystical elements of the text and bring it down to earth a bit. I also saw that he has a translation of The Analects, but I haven't read his version. However, I think The Analects are more straightforward than the Dao. Confucius (at least in this work) seems mainly to be concerned with practical issues like how to set up a just government and how best to live as an individual.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed May 25, 2011 10:02 am

Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
I've always seemed to avoid the sort of philosophical dilemma you are dealing with, though I think I've flirted with it a few times here and there. Maybe I'm just a simple hedonist at bottom, but I've always felt like I've been able to mix material pursuits with spiritual pursuits.


I feel as though material pursuits can end up being completely arbitrary and unending. I believe you really need to fully understand yourself and what makes you lead the most fulfilling life, not the most fulfilling life in terms of social norms, but in terms of your individual mind. I think a lot of american culture is based on comparing yourself to everyone and continually judging people. I don't believe it is either healthy or natural.


I agree with that. I was reading the wiki on Tolle, and I identify a lot with what he is saying. At some point in college, while studying with an amazing professor, I reached what you could call a sort of state of contentment. I lose sight of it from time to time, but I can usually go back to it pretty easily. At bottom it really amounts to the fact that I absolutely love myself. That may said cheesy and/or conceited, but it all really starts there. I wouldn't want to be anyone else and I wouldn't want to not be me. I love living, feeling, being -- even on the worst day filled with bad news, that I am here in the universe living and experiencing is amazing. Having the chance to be alive, even for so brief a time as we get -- that's about the greatest thing in the universe.

When people me ask me about not drinking coffee, I always joke "I'm high on life", but its a half serious answer. I don't know how anyone can need something to get going in the morning, you're up, you're alive, you have a day of life ahead of you. If you can't get up for that, then I don't know, man...

But I kind of live in my head a lot. I'm definitely really the only judge of my life that I care about. My pursuit of material things is really a means to an ends, certainly not the end in itself. I don't know... I kind of agree with the thing on Tolle's wiki that you can't really teach it. It just sort of happens. Maybe I don't really get it and I'm just crazy, but I feel like I do.



What Tolle writes about resonates deeply with me. It has helped me differentiate being and acting within the confines of the voice in my head. It's interesting to think of that voice in your head as something not fully yourself. A lot of stress, anger and anxiety are the direct result of your internal creation. What I try to take from his stuff is the ability to act consistent with external stimulis and derive intrinsic value from life.

After my recent break up I was listening to his audio book a lot. he talks a lot about human relationships and it helped to understand some miscommunications in the relationship and some undue internal responsibilities that both of us were putting on the relationship.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 10:10 am

Troy Loney wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
I've always seemed to avoid the sort of philosophical dilemma you are dealing with, though I think I've flirted with it a few times here and there. Maybe I'm just a simple hedonist at bottom, but I've always felt like I've been able to mix material pursuits with spiritual pursuits.


I feel as though material pursuits can end up being completely arbitrary and unending. I believe you really need to fully understand yourself and what makes you lead the most fulfilling life, not the most fulfilling life in terms of social norms, but in terms of your individual mind. I think a lot of american culture is based on comparing yourself to everyone and continually judging people. I don't believe it is either healthy or natural.


I agree with that. I was reading the wiki on Tolle, and I identify a lot with what he is saying. At some point in college, while studying with an amazing professor, I reached what you could call a sort of state of contentment. I lose sight of it from time to time, but I can usually go back to it pretty easily. At bottom it really amounts to the fact that I absolutely love myself. That may said cheesy and/or conceited, but it all really starts there. I wouldn't want to be anyone else and I wouldn't want to not be me. I love living, feeling, being -- even on the worst day filled with bad news, that I am here in the universe living and experiencing is amazing. Having the chance to be alive, even for so brief a time as we get -- that's about the greatest thing in the universe.

When people me ask me about not drinking coffee, I always joke "I'm high on life", but its a half serious answer. I don't know how anyone can need something to get going in the morning, you're up, you're alive, you have a day of life ahead of you. If you can't get up for that, then I don't know, man...

But I kind of live in my head a lot. I'm definitely really the only judge of my life that I care about. My pursuit of material things is really a means to an ends, certainly not the end in itself. I don't know... I kind of agree with the thing on Tolle's wiki that you can't really teach it. It just sort of happens. Maybe I don't really get it and I'm just crazy, but I feel like I do.



What Tolle writes about resonates deeply with me. It has helped me differentiate being and acting within the confines of the voice in my head. It's interesting to think of that voice in your head as something not fully yourself. A lot of stress, anger and anxiety are the direct result of your internal creation. What I try to take from his stuff is the ability to act consistent with external stimulis and derive intrinsic value from life.

After my recent break up I was listening to his audio book a lot. he talks a lot about human relationships and it helped to understand some miscommunications in the relationship and some undue internal responsibilities that both of us were putting on the relationship.


Yeah, the more I read on his wiki, maybe our ultimate views are not so similar or maybe I agree with him but there's a semantic difficulty in expressing these thoughts/beliefs in words. I don't really know if I reject the ego, I'd have to better understand what he means about transcending ego-based consciousness.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Dostoevsky on Wed May 25, 2011 10:23 am

Point Breeze Penguins wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Does anyone have opinions on any eastern philosophers?

I'm trying to get a hold on the predominant philosophers throughout history. I'm currently working through the ancient greek philosophers. It was a while ago but i had ancient and modern philosophy in college...i wish i would have done philosophy and economics in college instead of history and economics.


Not really. I don't know of any Eastern Philosophers who had significant impact on the continental and/or analytic philosophy/philosophers that is taught in most American and European universities. Eastern "philosophy" that I am familiar with (not much) is steeped pretty heavily in religion and seems to have a fundamentally different purpose than "non-Eastern" philosophy -- more concerned about explaining the world based upon a "religious" view than pure rational inquiry into the world around us. This is all pretty uninformed, but its as much as I know.


Religion or spirituality? I think those overlap at times, but at other times can be very different. I guess I want to learn/understand/apply some philosophical aspects to my life. I'm coming to understand that too many external, out of control "goods" are dictating my life. I feel like my motivation and happiness are too much dictated by external factors...

Like, in order to be happy I need to have such and such job, such and such wife, such and such car etc. I'm still trying to understand how to find those intrinsic qualities of existence that create a more natural being.


If you are interested in a more "spiritual" western philosophy I'd give this a read.

http://tinyurl.com/3cnb6la

What about Heidegger!

Heidegger is the only Western Philosopher who not only intellectually understands but has intuitively grasped Taoist thought
-Chang Chung-Yuan

Also, if more inclined toward literature, Swiss author Hermann Hesse was highly influenced by Eastern thought.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby doublem on Wed May 25, 2011 10:26 am

http://tinybuddha.com/

I'm a fan. To me everything else is of little importance if you are miserable. Reaching peace is the ultimate goal in life, imo. Also http://tinybuddha.com/blog/8-ways-to-ma ... y-and-fun/

:thumb: :thumb:
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 10:28 am

As long as peace/contentment don't lead to complacency then I can appreciate that being the ultimate goal of one's life. I think its a stepping stone to something more, though.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby doublem on Wed May 25, 2011 10:33 am

I don't think those go together, in fact I would say you gain a better idea of what to work for.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 10:40 am

doublem wrote:I don't think those go together, in fact I would say you gain a better idea of what to work for.

:thumb:
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 25, 2011 10:41 am

You are a big Myth of Sisyphus fan, right, doulbem?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby doublem on Wed May 25, 2011 10:43 am

Yes, big fan of Camus in general.
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