LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Shyster on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:15 pm

:pop:
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby columbia on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:15 pm

I haven't been to church since I was 18, but thankfully haven't been booted from the family. :)
Co-existence isn't really a problem for most.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:23 pm

columbia wrote:I haven't been to church since I was 18, but thankfully haven't been booted from the family. :)
Co-existence isn't really a problem for most.


Yup. But those of us who can and do co-exist don't get the press. Jagoffs who want a Star of David taken off a Holocaust Memorial or protest soldier's funerals do...
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:23 pm

I've made it known that I don't really hold any beliefs, but I always look at it as all of the religions that have names attached to them are BS made by humans to manipulate people. If there is a god, maybe he introduced his ideas through one of those people and that human made religion happens to actually be right. I don't really have any beliefs and I don't understand the process people take to get to following one, but I also don't have any problem with any one religion over another. I think its likely that none of them are accurate, but there is no way to know, and i'm certainly jealous of those who have faith in something.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:26 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I've made it known that I don't really hold any beliefs, but I always look at it as all of the religions that have names attached to them are BS made by humans to manipulate people. If there is a god, maybe he introduced his ideas through one of those people and that human made religion happens to actually be right. I don't really have any beliefs and I don't understand the process people take to get to following one, but I also don't have any problem with any one religion over another. I think its likely that none of them are accurate, but there is no way to know, and i'm certainly jealous of those who have faith in something.

:thumb:

Used to be a believer, it's like being unplugged from the Matrix. Sometimes wish I had the faith to feel there was something more, but in science vs religion, it always goes to science, simply because I deal in numbers and facts.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:27 pm

Why does it have to be science vs religion? Can they not co-exist? Science has not disproved God or creation. Outside of that I'm pretty sure there are no contradictions. I love science. It interests me a great deal.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:30 pm

Yeah, I don't think there needs to be a separation between creation and evolution(Which is to say I am pretty sure evolution is the reality, but it doesn't disprove creation). The extreme idea of creation in the past 2000 years is a bit much for me though.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby columbia on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:31 pm

re: the rationality schism

My father was a scientist and his attitude over his faith is (roughly speaking) is, "I'm not claiming that it's a rational stance."
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:31 pm

It doesn't have to be,and in most cases isn't, but simply based on how religion has had to ebb it's definition here and there based on scientific discovery leads me down that path.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:31 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It offends God. It doesn't offend me. Do what you want. You're still a cool guy in my book :thumb:

How do you know what God is or isn't offended by?


Okay....I can answer this question under the condition that you take my answer, agree or disagree, and leave it at that. You don't believe in God or that the Bible is God's word. That's your choice. I, however, do.

How do I know? I read (pronounced: reed) the Bible.

Didn't mean it as an assault on the Bible or religion. It's more saying no one really knows what God thinks. Claiming someone doesn't believe though is a bit of a stretch. I am allowed to question the higher power while still believing.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:36 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:It offends God. It doesn't offend me. Do what you want. You're still a cool guy in my book :thumb:

How do you know what God is or isn't offended by?


Okay....I can answer this question under the condition that you take my answer, agree or disagree, and leave it at that. You don't believe in God or that the Bible is God's word. That's your choice. I, however, do.

How do I know? I read (pronounced: reed) the Bible.

Didn't mean it as an assault on the Bible or religion. It's more saying no one really knows what God thinks. Claiming someone doesn't believe though is a bit of a stretch. I am allowed to question the higher power while still believing.


I thought we had talked previously and you had told me you didn't believe. I apologize if this is wrong. I never assume someone's beliefs unless they told me, as was my assumption here. :fist:

As for the assault on the Bible, I didn't see it as one. However I wanted to make it clear that The Bible is where I got my evidence from and most people won't take that answer.

Yes, I can't tell you what God is thinking. I can tell you some of the things that offend Him. I also think we have to use the word "offend" in the royal sense. Offend, upset, anger...There are a plethora of words that could be used. I don't think we are told EVERYTHING that offends God but we are told some things. Creating a false religion to belittle Christianity (among other religions) while not named directly in the Bible, is among the offenses that we are told God takes.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:48 pm

Rylan wrote:I despise open mockery of religion like the Flying Spaghetti Monster implies. It is nothing more than an open insult to those that have a belief in a higher power. The entire point of it is so those that do not believe can continue to make themselves feel more important and intelligent. It is a **** measurement that is abhorrent and above all else as disrespectful as atheists/agnostics claim religious zealots to be. /rant


You're welcome to despise it, but, IMO, mockery is a valid critical tool, as long as it has a specific purpose and there is an reasonable argument behind it.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster movement takes every assertion made by mainstream religions and simply substitutes the FSM for "God." What emerges, hopefully, is a realization that religions have no basis in rationality or, indeed, reality. Religious folk simply choose to believe anything they want, whether that is God, Allah, or the FSM.

I think it makes the point clearly and succinctly. One could write volumes arguing against religion, but the mockery angle of the FSM movement makes it clear immediately. Again, IMO.

The FSM movement is not the start of this, BTW. Bertrand Russell made his similar "celestial teapot" argument over sixty years ago.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Rylan on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:56 pm

redwill wrote:
Rylan wrote:I despise open mockery of religion like the Flying Spaghetti Monster implies. It is nothing more than an open insult to those that have a belief in a higher power. The entire point of it is so those that do not believe can continue to make themselves feel more important and intelligent. It is a **** measurement that is abhorrent and above all else as disrespectful as atheists/agnostics claim religious zealots to be. /rant


You're welcome to despise it, but, IMO, mockery is a valid critical tool, as long as it has a specific purpose and there is an reasonable argument behind it.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster movement takes every assertion made by mainstream religions and simply substitutes the FSM for "God." What emerges, hopefully, is a realization that religions have no basis in rationality or, indeed, reality. Religious folk simply choose to believe anything they want, whether that is God, Allah, or the FSM.

I think it makes the point clearly and succinctly. One could write volumes arguing against religion, but the mockery angle of the FSM movement makes it clear immediately. Again, IMO.

The FSM movement is not the start of this, BTW. Bertrand Russell made his similar "celestial teapot" argument over sixty years ago.


I believe in a live and let live philosophy. So I find mockery to be a terrible tool as it intends to denote a superior position of knowledge, position, or any other aspect to which people try to separate themselves from average. I think both philosophy and science should be taught in high schools.

There are better ways to say why you think religion is not the answer to believe in or whatever you feel like disputing. But mocking is low and insulting IMO. Had it stayed in the realm of evolution belonging in schools I would be completely content with it. But, people have changed it and use it to mock those that have belief in a higher power. I feel that is wrong.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:01 pm

It's really nothing more than a form of the "argument by counter-example."
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Shyster on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:05 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:Creating a false religion to belittle Christianity (among other religions) while not named directly in the Bible, is among the offenses that we are told God takes.

Wouldn’t that arguably violate three of the Ten Commandments, i.e., no-gods-before me, create-no-images, and no-name-in-vain (which in its broadest interpretation I believe bars the false representation of God’s character)?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:05 pm

Yes. That would be one of the scriptures I could use to back up my point.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Shyster on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:09 pm

Rylan wrote:There are better ways to say why you think religion is not the answer to believe in or whatever you feel like disputing. But mocking is low and insulting IMO. Had it stayed in the realm of evolution belonging in schools I would be completely content with it. But, people have changed it and use it to mock those that have belief in a higher power. I feel that is wrong.

I think I’ve mentioned this term before, but I refer to those folks as “evangelical atheists.” And personally, I would rather spend a week trapped at a convention of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses than be in the company of evangelical atheists.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:10 pm

Shyster wrote:Wouldn’t that arguably violate three of the Ten Commandments, i.e., no-gods-before me, create-no-images, and no-name-in-vain (which in its broadest interpretation I believe bars the false representation of God’s character)?


Isn't it interesting that some people want the Ten Commandments to be in courtrooms across the country when several of the Ten Commandments are explicitly unconstitutional?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:12 pm

I really don't care if the Ten Commandments are in a courtroom or not.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:12 pm

But threatening an Atheist with God's displeasure is like an adult being threatened that Santa isn't coming for them this year.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:12 pm

i think the idea of god being "offended" at something is humorous.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:13 pm

GSdrums87 wrote:But threatening an Atheist with God's displeasure is like an adult being threatened that Santa isn't coming for them this year.


Exactly. Whether it affects them or not it still offends, upsets, brings the wrath of, displeases, whatever, God.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:13 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:I really don't care if the Ten Commandments are in a courtroom or not.


I know, man. Didn't mean to imply that you're in the group with the Roy Moores and Ted Nugents.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:22 pm

Shyster wrote:I think I’ve mentioned this term before, but I refer to those folks as “evangelical atheists.” And personally, I would rather spend a week trapped at a convention of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses than be in the company of evangelical atheists.


I live in Kansas, nine miles from the nearest town of any consequence. I'm an ardent atheist. I interact with dozens of people every day.

Funnily enough, the only people with whom I've had face-to-face conversations about religion are the religious folk who COME TO MY DOOR. I have never heard of atheists going door-to-door trying to convert people.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Shyster on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:25 pm

redwill wrote:
Shyster wrote:Wouldn’t that arguably violate three of the Ten Commandments, i.e., no-gods-before me, create-no-images, and no-name-in-vain (which in its broadest interpretation I believe bars the false representation of God’s character)?

Isn't it interesting that some people want the Ten Commandments to be in courtrooms across the country when several of the Ten Commandments are explicitly unconstitutional?

This is the ceiling of the Supreme Court courtroom on the eighth floor of the City-County building:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32215181@N08/5506691171/
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