The Official LGP College Football Realignment Thread

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby newarenanow on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:42 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I read that Mizzou isn't interested in the SEC that they are holding out for a Big 10 invite. Is there any truth to this?


Mizzou said they are "solid" with the Big XII even if A&M leave. However, I think if they get a birdie telling them that if they apply for the SEC they'd be the 14th team, they'd seriously consider it.

From what I've read, Mizzou is low on the Big 10 list to expand further, so I think if presented a choice, and they really wanted to leave, they'd take the SEC invite if it was there.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,138
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:45 pm

newarenanow wrote:

If it was all about market penetration, RU would have been selected for the Big 10 instead of Nebraska, as Big 10 FB would penetrate anywhere.


Don't know if you're making this assumption or not, but let me make this VERY clear: NYC is not a college football market, and I don't see it EVER becoming one.

The folks up here get beyond pissed off if they're in a Pub and someone turns the TV from a meaningless Yankee or Met game to a GREAT college football game in Sept/Oct. They just don't give a rat's patoot.

Also, yes Rutgers is a 30-40 minute train ride from NYC in Newark, but if there's any fan interest in the NYC market at all for CFB, it's for 'Cuse.

That's just the reality of it.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby columbia on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:47 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
newarenanow wrote:

If it was all about market penetration, RU would have been selected for the Big 10 instead of Nebraska, as Big 10 FB would penetrate anywhere.


Don't know if you're making this assumption or not, but let me make this VERY clear: NYC is not a college football market, and I don't see it EVER becoming one.

The folks up here get beyond pissed off if they're in a Pub and someone turns the TV from a meaningless Yankee or Met game to a GREAT college football game in Sept/Oct. They just don't give a rat's patoot.

Also, yes Rutgers is a 30-40 minute train ride from NYC in Newark, but if there's any fan interest in the NYC market at all for CFB, it's for 'Cuse.

That's just the reality of it.


Well, they were pretty excited about the “There's pandemonium in Piscataway!” call.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,400
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby newarenanow on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:49 pm

Draftnik wrote:The ACC won’t ever be an all sports power conference like the Big 10 & SEC, but the Carolina schools (really UNC) won’t move to another conference where that they can’t run like they run things like they currently control the ACC. If/when consolidation of the BCS conferences goes from 6 to 4, the ACC will be the 4th conference standing from a FB perspective. The Big East and Big 12 will be the conferences swallowed because UNC and their Carolina brethren won’t allow themselves to be swallowed up in any scenario.



As for this, I agree. If there is ever a move to 4 16 team conferences, the ACC is definitely the bottom of the list. However, depending on who gets picked off, if anyone does from the ACC, it will still be a decent conference, just not at the level of the SEC and Big 10 and also Pac 12.

The Big XII and Big East are going to be the feeder conferences.

There is still plenty of rumors flying that if the Big 10 were to expand further, Maryland is very high on the list.

I just hope when all is said and done, for me personally, I hope Pitt lands on it's feet. If there is a move to 16 team conferences in the future, I see no way they are left out. A partial move, or a move to 14, I think they could be in trouble, but it is not hopeless as they offer a strong resume for the ACC IMO. If worse comes to worse, and it is a move to 14, or a partial move where say the SEC goes to 14 and the ACC does as well, I can see a merger of the Big XII school/Big East left overs.

This will be very interesting though, especially after all of the A&M/SEC drama is over.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,138
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:54 pm

Maryland doesn't do anything for me. Sure they add the DC/Baltimore market but I couldn't get excited to see PSU play them.
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,114
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Draftnik on Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:18 pm

newarenanow wrote:I agree 100% it's all about TV, but there are many other factors involved as well. Look at the Big 10 expansion. Nebraska does not offer much of a market for their Big 10 network. What they do offer though is brand name, which can bring something to the tier 1 TV rights which is what pays the big bucks.

If it was all about market penetration, RU would have been selected for the Big 10 instead of Nebraska, as Big 10 FB would penetrate anywhere.

I'm not doubting your sources, and you could be 100% correct in the order the ACC wants to expand. But I've also read on other message boards from people that have various sources that have a completely different list, but I've also saw where it is the same exact list as yours.

Pitt and WVU have better brand name than Uconn and Syracuse and bring more viewers nationally (and yes, I know those two schools don't compare to the national powers). But with ratings of bowl games and nationally televised games like the Backyard Brawl and other higher quality OOC games, Pitt and WVU rank at the top of the Big East in national viewership.

That is one of the many factors that could go into this. The Big 10 took the brand at the expense of the market. The Pac 12 took the market at the expense of the brand (although they did shoot for both).

And with college FB expanding into almost every night of the week, conferences like the ACC and Pac (along with the BE) will be filling in more and more of the weekday night schedule, which is bringing in more and more ratings. No matter what, the Big 10 and SEC own Saturday.

One things I have learned though through all of this though, and reading endless boards and people that nail it with recruiting and coaching changes, etc, proving they do have some connections, when it comes to conference expansion, nobody knows what the hell is going to happen.


I agree Nebraska brought nothing to the B10 in terms of TV homes. Their strategic value to the B10 is in terms of building a bridge to the old Big 8 schools. The Pac 10 took Colorado (Big 8) and was trying to take UT (former SWC). If the Pac 10 got UT, then OU and pretty much anybody else worth taking from the B12 was going to go with them. Now the B10 has a foot in the door since Nebraska is a long time ally of OU & Mizzou from their Big 8 days.

If the B10 goes to 16, they have options to expand in those areas. OU & Mizzou are definite targets for the SEC as well if they move west. I don't think Nebraska guarantees the B10 could take OU & Mizzou from the SEC or OU from the Pac 10, but at least they are in the mix to move there when the next dominoes fall.

Plus the 12th team was a very key milestone for the B10 because they added $20M-$25M per season for their conference FB championship game. The incremental revenue the 12th team added on a percentage basis was always going to mean a great deal annually for the B10 coffers regardless of the market.

Rutgers theoretically adds value but they have sucked forever. Their cyclical history is to always suck with a brief blip of decency a few years ago. Supposedly they were in the mix for a 16 team B10 along with Mizzou, ND and a few others. On the down side, they don't really fit the FB profile. They couldn't be considered a natural rival for PSU. The B10 and other conferences already recruit the best athletes in NJ, so having a team there wouldn't do a whole lot for recruiting. Nebraska has nothing in terms of recruiting, but they are contiguous to Iowa and of the proper stature to make a good rival.

Once a conference gets past 12, the economics change because the conference title game revenue is already consumed so the 13th team will be another mouth to feed unless they have real juice like UT. That is why it was critical for the Pac 10 & Big 10 to get to 12 and the SEC has played things conservatively at 12. I heard Finebaum talking today about the SEC not wanting to aggressively pursue teams because of potential lawsuits from other conferences. On the other hand, his sources say the SEC has seen what has happened in the past few years with the B10 network proliferation & the looming Pac 10 & Longhorn networks, so they could be looking to get out of their ESPN deal and create their own regional network. Who knows if that is legally possible.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Draftnik on Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:29 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The ACC won’t ever be an all sports power conference like the Big 10 & SEC, but the Carolina schools (really UNC) won’t move to another conference where that they can’t run like they run things like they currently control the ACC. If/when consolidation of the BCS conferences goes from 6 to 4, the ACC will be the 4th conference standing from a FB perspective. The Big East and Big 12 will be the conferences swallowed because UNC and their Carolina brethren won’t allow themselves to be swallowed up in any scenario.



As for this, I agree. If there is ever a move to 4 16 team conferences, the ACC is definitely the bottom of the list. However, depending on who gets picked off, if anyone does from the ACC, it will still be a decent conference, just not at the level of the SEC and Big 10 and also Pac 12.

The Big XII and Big East are going to be the feeder conferences.

There is still plenty of rumors flying that if the Big 10 were to expand further, Maryland is very high on the list.

I just hope when all is said and done, for me personally, I hope Pitt lands on it's feet. If there is a move to 16 team conferences in the future, I see no way they are left out. A partial move, or a move to 14, I think they could be in trouble, but it is not hopeless as they offer a strong resume for the ACC IMO. If worse comes to worse, and it is a move to 14, or a partial move where say the SEC goes to 14 and the ACC does as well, I can see a merger of the Big XII school/Big East left overs.

This will be very interesting though, especially after all of the A&M/SEC drama is over.


I think Pitt would definitely have a spot in somebody's 16 team conference, most likely the ACC. They have a good academic profile and decent recruiting area. PSU mitigates the natural value of the TV market, but there really aren't any schools out there they are ripe for the picking that tick every possible attractive box.

I doubt MD would move to the B10 if we were invited. The value of the ACC contracts with ESPN/ABC aren't really apples to apples with other conferences. ACC hoops games have a very lucrative regional syndication deal with Raycom/JP (or whatever the name is). All the ACC games that we see on ESPN/ESPN2, etc aren't shown on those channels in the ACC markets. All the conference games are regionally syndicated in the ACC markets, so that really dilutes the $$$ they get from ESPN. Even when WFU plays FSU for example, that game would be on Channel 7 (or 20 or whichever station has the rights) in the DC market, channel 11 in Baltimore, ... even though the game doesn't involve MD. Its the same thing with the ACC tourney. The ACC markets obviously generate the best ratings for ACC games, so that lack of households takes a big chunk out of ESPN's ratings. That is why the $$$ may not appear to be that great from ESPN, but the ACC schools get great $$$ from regional syndication that other conferences don't get.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby columbia on Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:55 am

What are the ratings for Notre Dame football these days? I've always wanted to see them in the Big 10.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,400
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Rylan on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:28 am

I told a girl after a romping night I'd call her once. heh heh never did.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,001
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby pittsports87 on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:54 am

Rylan wrote:I told a girl after a romping night I'd call her once. heh heh never did.

Everyone has had those nights.
pittsports87
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,399
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: College

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:20 am

Draftnik wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The ACC won’t ever be an all sports power conference like the Big 10 & SEC, but the Carolina schools (really UNC) won’t move to another conference where that they can’t run like they run things like they currently control the ACC. If/when consolidation of the BCS conferences goes from 6 to 4, the ACC will be the 4th conference standing from a FB perspective. The Big East and Big 12 will be the conferences swallowed because UNC and their Carolina brethren won’t allow themselves to be swallowed up in any scenario.



As for this, I agree. If there is ever a move to 4 16 team conferences, the ACC is definitely the bottom of the list. However, depending on who gets picked off, if anyone does from the ACC, it will still be a decent conference, just not at the level of the SEC and Big 10 and also Pac 12.

The Big XII and Big East are going to be the feeder conferences.

There is still plenty of rumors flying that if the Big 10 were to expand further, Maryland is very high on the list.

I just hope when all is said and done, for me personally, I hope Pitt lands on it's feet. If there is a move to 16 team conferences in the future, I see no way they are left out. A partial move, or a move to 14, I think they could be in trouble, but it is not hopeless as they offer a strong resume for the ACC IMO. If worse comes to worse, and it is a move to 14, or a partial move where say the SEC goes to 14 and the ACC does as well, I can see a merger of the Big XII school/Big East left overs.

This will be very interesting though, especially after all of the A&M/SEC drama is over.


I think Pitt would definitely have a spot in somebody's 16 team conference, most likely the ACC. They have a good academic profile and decent recruiting area. PSU mitigates the natural value of the TV market, but there really aren't any schools out there they are ripe for the picking that tick every possible attractive box.

I doubt MD would move to the B10 if we were invited. The value of the ACC contracts with ESPN/ABC aren't really apples to apples with other conferences. ACC hoops games have a very lucrative regional syndication deal with Raycom/JP (or whatever the name is). All the ACC games that we see on ESPN/ESPN2, etc aren't shown on those channels in the ACC markets. All the conference games are regionally syndicated in the ACC markets, so that really dilutes the $$$ they get from ESPN. Even when WFU plays FSU for example, that game would be on Channel 7 (or 20 or whichever station has the rights) in the DC market, channel 11 in Baltimore, ... even though the game doesn't involve MD. Its the same thing with the ACC tourney. The ACC markets obviously generate the best ratings for ACC games, so that lack of households takes a big chunk out of ESPN's ratings. That is why the $$$ may not appear to be that great from ESPN, but the ACC schools get great $$$ from regional syndication that other conferences don't get.



I am a Pitt grad and am openly rooting for the Panthers to get into the ACC. I think it not only is the best fit but provides the best chance for Pitt to compete annually.
Point Breeze Penguins
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,159
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:21 pm
Location: Arlington House, Arlington, Virginia

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:26 am

If Pitt goes to the ACC I hope WVU drops them off their schedule in both Footnall and Basketball. Just like Pitt and PSU when PSU went to the Big 10 and like everyone did to BC, VT, and Miami when they left the B.E. For the ACC.

I really hate what's become of CFB when it comes to the conferences.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby bhaw on Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:52 am

Rylan wrote:I told a girl after a romping night I'd call her once. heh heh never did.


It's alright, you are probably just known as "Mr. Smalls" within her circle of friends.
bhaw
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,986
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:02 am

columbia wrote:What are the ratings for Notre Dame football these days? I've always wanted to see them in the Big 10.


Surprisingly I believe ratings are better when they are playing poorly. America loves to watch them lose.
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,114
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:12 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
columbia wrote:What are the ratings for Notre Dame football these days? I've always wanted to see them in the Big 10.


Surprisingly I believe ratings are better when they are playing poorly. America loves to watch them lose.


I root for four CFB teams:

WVU
Whoever's playing ND
Whoever's playing Michigan

And of course

Whoever's playing Pitt

I also root AGAINST the Yankees in baseball.

Funny thing though, I've never rooted against the Canadians in hockey. Even though I was a hockey fan during their last string of Stanley Cups.

I just can't get worked up over that organization like I do with other dominate teams in other sports.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:42 am

I like to see WVU do well. I can't stand to see OSU win.
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,114
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Draftnik on Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:31 pm

Ratings are obviously an important element in terms of valuation for NBC’s deal with ND, but content is probably more important. ND is NBC’s only entre into CFB. They probably don’t have programming on Saturday afternoons at 2:30 that would generate the same ratings. Plus classic ND games and probably a weekly coach’s show will become content for the rebranded Versus.

Versus had Mt West games last season, so there is some synergy in having legitimate CFB programming on the main NBC network as well.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby newarenanow on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:23 pm

Draftnik wrote:Ratings are obviously an important element in terms of valuation for NBC’s deal with ND, but content is probably more important. ND is NBC’s only entre into CFB. They probably don’t have programming on Saturday afternoons at 2:30 that would generate the same ratings. Plus classic ND games and probably a weekly coach’s show will become content for the rebranded Versus.

Versus had Mt West games last season, so there is some synergy in having legitimate CFB programming on the main NBC network as well.


NBC is rebranding their network into NBC sports, and they made a pitch to the PAC12, but lost out to ESPN (one reason they got a great deal), and are now supposed to bid for the Big East. The deal, unless the TV bubble burst, is supposed to surpass the ACC's deal with ESPN.

That is possibly one reason these conferences may go over 12 in the future, they can get more money out of the networks as there is more competition now outside of ESPN/ABC. And if the distribution is fragmented, they will need more inventory to show the conference games, therefore, more teams.

Again, I'm no expert, and you probably know a hell of a lot more than I do, but there are some interesting articles out there talking about all of this. I'll try to find them.

Between numerous networks bidding for the first tier rights, and also second tier (FOX and Pac 12) (CBS and SEC), and conferences forming their own networks for the rest, there is a much more demand for inventory. Larry Scott, the Pac 12 commish stated this is one reason why he sees more consolidation in the future via major conferences.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,138
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:26 pm

NBC would be crazy to offer the Big East more money than the ACC as its constructed now.
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,114
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:28 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:NBC would be crazy to offer the Big East more money than the ACC as its constructed now.


Not if it was + Basketball.
Point Breeze Penguins
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,159
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:21 pm
Location: Arlington House, Arlington, Virginia

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:29 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:NBC would be crazy to offer the Big East more money than the ACC as its constructed now.


Why? The Big East has the number #1 and #4 markets in the country.

Two and three are Chicago (heart of Big Ten) and L.A. (PAC). What does the ACC have?
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby newarenanow on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:33 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:NBC would be crazy to offer the Big East more money than the ACC as its constructed now.


ESPN offered the Big East a comparable deal to the ACC over the summer and the Big East turned it down knowing if it hit the open market, they could get more money.

NBC is trying to get into the college sports world. The other 5 BCS conferences are locked up in long term deals. ESPN wants to keep the Big East. NBC wants to pry it away so they have not only the FB content, but a winters worth of BB content.

The supply for other conferences is nill, yet the demand is high. = more $$$$
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,138
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby newarenanow on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:35 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:NBC would be crazy to offer the Big East more money than the ACC as its constructed now.


Why? The Big East has the number #1 and #4 markets in the country.

Two and three are Chicago (heart of Big Ten) and L.A. (PAC). What does the ACC have?



Plus the Dallas/Ft Worth area is being added.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,138
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby Troy Loney on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:38 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:NBC would be crazy to offer the Big East more money than the ACC as its constructed now.


Why? The Big East has the number #1 and #4 markets in the country.

Two and three are Chicago (heart of Big Ten) and L.A. (PAC). What does the ACC have?


What's #4? The Boston Market?
Troy Loney
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,589
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: SEC Tells Texas A&M, "We'll Call You."

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:40 pm

If basketball was included that would make a difference. Would NBC ditch ND then infavor of a Big East deal?
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,114
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ajh2298, Dickie Dunn, Eismann, Jim, King Sid the Great 87, meecrofilm, Pens Fan Since 1970, PghSkins, skullman80, Spangler and 11 guests

e-mail