LGP Education thread

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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:37 am

count2infinity wrote:It's difficult to compare SK to the US in any sort of way in terms of education and educators. The view toward education and teachers in that country is similar to the views of doctors in this country. Regarded as upper echelon citizens. Respected beyond belief. Not to mention the fact that the parents in that country beat it into every kid's head that education is important. It is something to be valued. The same cannot be said about America. Here, education is something to be scoffed at by a large number of citizens and it's pretty sickening.


I'm not going to regard teachers an "upper echelon citizens" for several reasons:

My own experience in school. A social studies department filled with alumni who peaked at 17 during their senior year of high school football, coupled with apathetic teachers who mailed it in. They were far more prevalent than the teachers who were really attempting to make a difference.

The ease with which a teaching degree can be obtained. I saw more than enough fretting over the next multiple choice educational psychology exam or putting together the next lesson plan while engineering students were buried in the labs until late in the evening to know who really had to put the time in to obtain a degree.

It's not fair and isn't 100% indicative of all teachers, but perception is reality. Unfortunately, the good ones get lumped in with (and overshadowed by)the bad.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Grunthy on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:49 am

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:It's difficult to compare SK to the US in any sort of way in terms of education and educators. The view toward education and teachers in that country is similar to the views of doctors in this country. Regarded as upper echelon citizens. Respected beyond belief. Not to mention the fact that the parents in that country beat it into every kid's head that education is important. It is something to be valued. The same cannot be said about America. Here, education is something to be scoffed at by a large number of citizens and it's pretty sickening.


I'm not going to regard teachers an "upper echelon citizens" for several reasons:

My own experience in school. A social studies department filled with alumni who peaked at 17 during their senior year of high school football, coupled with apathetic teachers who mailed it in. They were far more prevalent than the teachers who were really attempting to make a difference.

The ease with which a teaching degree can be obtained. I saw more than enough fretting over the next multiple choice educational psychology exam or putting together the next lesson plan while engineering students were buried in the labs until late in the evening to know who really had to put the time in to obtain a degree.

It's not fair and isn't 100% indicative of all teachers, but perception is reality. Unfortunately, the good ones get lumped in with (and overshadowed by)the bad.



This just makes me sickened. If you think getting a teaching degree is so easy, go and get one. Also try to get hired at a good school if you get less than a 3.5 gpa.

Comparing teaching to engineering is idiotic. I studied engineering in college and I had a hell of an easier time than some teachers. The good teachers far out weigh the bad by a very significant number, and to think otherwise is just ridiculous.

Student teaching is no joke either. Get less than an A as a student teacher, good luck finding a job in the next couple of years. Have you ever put together a lesson plan? If not, you cannot speak if they are easy or not.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:59 am

I've never put together a lesson plan for students but I've created many training modules and conducted trainings for adults and its not easy.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby count2infinity on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:59 am

To be fair... it is WAY too easy to get a teaching degree IMO. And in my experience there are a large number of bad teachers that have already phoned it in. The problem is that no one is looking out for the best interest of education, everyone is looking out for the best interest of themselves. MOST, and I stress, MOST teachers want better pay but are unwilling to reach the full requirements that would allow for better pay (see tougher classes, higher workload for keeping up with classes, more workshops and seminars, etc) and MOST, again I stress, MOST citizens want better teachers, but aren't willing to fit the bill for better teachers, they just ***** and moan about how terrible teachers are and call it day. This isn't a teacher problem or a student problem or a parent problem, it's a society problem.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:16 am

1. Getting a teaching degree is pretty easy, especially when you can do half your schooling at a junior college

2. There are good teachers

3. Being a good teacher is not enough. Especially in Western PA. Nepotism has ruined the public school system. What I mean by that is the people that get jobs or get interviews overwhelming know someone or are related to someone that is on the board, is a principal, is friends with the super, etc. I personally know two teachers, one took 8 times to pass her praxis II's and the other took 17 times to pass her Praxis II's. They both have jobs due to who their parents knew and who they are related to. They are not smart people, they don't care that much about teaching, and I would not want them anywhere near children when it came to teaching. They're very nice but just about as smart as a brick.

I am a teacher and I work hard. Heck all my new colleagues that I've talked to and seen work also work hard. My interview process involved a novel idea which was actually teaching children. All the public schools I was in through school and subbing it was too easy to pick out the teachers that were mailing it in, that had their way and didn't want to change, that just couldn't wait till the Summer. There were teachers in every building and district though that would go seriously above and beyond and make it look easy though... I'm rambling

As count2infinity said it's a society problem.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby MWB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:37 am

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:It's difficult to compare SK to the US in any sort of way in terms of education and educators. The view toward education and teachers in that country is similar to the views of doctors in this country. Regarded as upper echelon citizens. Respected beyond belief. Not to mention the fact that the parents in that country beat it into every kid's head that education is important. It is something to be valued. The same cannot be said about America. Here, education is something to be scoffed at by a large number of citizens and it's pretty sickening.


I'm not going to regard teachers an "upper echelon citizens" for several reasons:

My own experience in school. A social studies department filled with alumni who peaked at 17 during their senior year of high school football, coupled with apathetic teachers who mailed it in. They were far more prevalent than the teachers who were really attempting to make a difference.

The ease with which a teaching degree can be obtained. I saw more than enough fretting over the next multiple choice educational psychology exam or putting together the next lesson plan while engineering students were buried in the labs until late in the evening to know who really had to put the time in to obtain a degree.

It's not fair and isn't 100% indicative of all teachers, but perception is reality. Unfortunately, the good ones get lumped in with (and overshadowed by)the bad.


Yes, perception is reality. So you've taken your perception and decided that teachers in general aren't worth much. This is a big part of what is wrong, and what c2i mentions as a societal issue. People take the personal experience with teachers (which is very limited and generally takes place when a person isn't very intellectually developed) and form an opinion.

The education/engineer student example is a bit odd. I agree that it is far too easy to get into teaching. However, comparing an actual engineer to an actual teacher would be more sensible. I bet you could find plenty of teachers that work harder than engineers and plenty that work less.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby MWB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:42 am

count2infinity wrote:MOST, and I stress, MOST teachers want better pay but are unwilling to reach the full requirements that would allow for better pay (see tougher classes, higher workload for keeping up with classes, more workshops and seminars, etc) and.


I agree with this, but many states are eliminating the added pay for added degrees, so it gets harder to justify spending your own money on something that won't pay for itself in the long run.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby shmenguin on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:03 pm

getting a business degree was so easy, it was almost comical. i guess there aren't any "upper echelon" businessmen in the world.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:28 pm

MWB wrote:
King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:It's difficult to compare SK to the US in any sort of way in terms of education and educators. The view toward education and teachers in that country is similar to the views of doctors in this country. Regarded as upper echelon citizens. Respected beyond belief. Not to mention the fact that the parents in that country beat it into every kid's head that education is important. It is something to be valued. The same cannot be said about America. Here, education is something to be scoffed at by a large number of citizens and it's pretty sickening.


I'm not going to regard teachers an "upper echelon citizens" for several reasons:

My own experience in school. A social studies department filled with alumni who peaked at 17 during their senior year of high school football, coupled with apathetic teachers who mailed it in. They were far more prevalent than the teachers who were really attempting to make a difference.

The ease with which a teaching degree can be obtained. I saw more than enough fretting over the next multiple choice educational psychology exam or putting together the next lesson plan while engineering students were buried in the labs until late in the evening to know who really had to put the time in to obtain a degree.

It's not fair and isn't 100% indicative of all teachers, but perception is reality. Unfortunately, the good ones get lumped in with (and overshadowed by)the bad.


Yes, perception is reality. So you've taken your perception and decided that teachers in general aren't worth much. This is a big part of what is wrong, and what c2i mentions as a societal issue. People take the personal experience with teachers (which is very limited and generally takes place when a person isn't very intellectually developed) and form an opinion.

The education/engineer student example is a bit odd. I agree that it is far too easy to get into teaching. However, comparing an actual engineer to an actual teacher would be more sensible. I bet you could find plenty of teachers that work harder than engineers and plenty that work less.


My assessment of teachers that I had won't evolve because they aren't coming from an analysis based on fairness, disciplinarian attitude, etc. Teachers who would take a period off every once in a while to grade exams for another class or teachers who would hand out extra credit points for little more than showing up were nothing more than a disservice to the students. That opinion won't change with time. If anything, it gets worse.

I'll agree it is a societal issue. It's up to the teachers to fix it. Get rid of the nepotism (as mentioned earlier) and the union protections that make it nearly impossible to remove an ineffective teacher and attitudes will start to change.

Even if teaching profession is 80:20 outstanding:poor teachers, that's still a terrible number. Teaching is a service, and if 20% are failures, it is poor service.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby count2infinity on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:38 pm

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:I'll agree it is a societal issue. It's up to the teachers to fix it.


That makes no sense. I agree that it's not necessarily the teacher's fault that the system is broken, but it's up to the teacher to fix it is essentially what you're saying. I don't think you realize how little control the teacher has over what happens outside of his/her classroom. There's only so much teachers can do.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Rylan on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:40 pm

shmenguin wrote:getting a business degree was so easy, it was almost comical. i guess there aren't any "upper echelon" businessmen in the world.


Because of the easiness of working through the classes for a business degree, I can not help but think I made a huge mistake in choosing my major.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Factorial on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:59 pm

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:I'll agree it is a societal issue. It's up to the teachers to fix it.


Ridiculous. What about the parents? In my estimation they play a far larger role in the lives of children than their teachers.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:13 pm

King Sid sounds like he had a terrible time in the public education system. That does happen and those opinions are hardened concrete. It's a shame that not even one teach could reach him but it's also a two sided coin of being open to it. That being said education is also taken for granted in this country. Every person in this country takes for granted that they are given education up through high-school and can then choose to go to college. People in this country don't have rigorous entrance exams for high quality high schools it's just handed to them. The attitude toward teachers I think can be traced to that. People take education for granted because that's how it's been, that's how it's going to be, you can't fight it, so some of them hate it. Other countries don't offer that same opportunity or given right of education to their populace. Many other countries education systems are setup to create an elite ruling class (oh that sounds scary) and they do this by having increasingly rigorous standards for their students starting from junior high on. The United States doesn't have that, everyone gets in, everyone goes to high-school, everyone expects that to happen.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:39 pm

Factorial wrote:
King Sid the Great 87 wrote:I'll agree it is a societal issue. It's up to the teachers to fix it.


Ridiculous. What about the parents? In my estimation they play a far larger role in the lives of children than their teachers.


Bigger picture, I agree. Parents will make or break kids far more than teachers. But that doesn't mean the existence of the teacher's union, who's primary function is to have as many teaching positions as possible, doesn't have a negative effect.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:43 pm

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/0 ... 376322954/

8th grade exam from 1912. I'd wager most 8th graders (heck, most 12th graders) would probably fail this.
Image
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby shmenguin on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:45 pm

Rylan wrote:
shmenguin wrote:getting a business degree was so easy, it was almost comical. i guess there aren't any "upper echelon" businessmen in the world.


Because of the easiness of working through the classes for a business degree, I can not help but think I made a huge mistake in choosing my major.


Does that mean you should or shouldn't have majored in business ?
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:46 pm

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
King Sid the Great 87 wrote:I'll agree it is a societal issue. It's up to the teachers to fix it.


Ridiculous. What about the parents? In my estimation they play a far larger role in the lives of children than their teachers.


Bigger picture, I agree. Parents will make or break kids far more than teachers. But that doesn't mean the existence of the teacher's union, who's primary function is to have as many teaching positions as possible, doesn't have a negative effect.

I work for a non-union school and they try to have a para-professional in the room for at least 2 hours of every 5 hours of instructional time. That's not union that's good sense. Additionally there are 2 para-professionals per grade. On top of that there are reading coaches, math coaches, speech specialists/therapists, and others that I'm forgetting. Number of teaching positions and the union don't affect a child nearly as much as their parents. If the parent doesn't care the child won't care, if a focus on education isn't prevalent in the home then the child won't care. The single biggest factor to a child's success is their parents/guardians.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby MWB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:55 pm

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
My assessment of teachers that I had won't evolve because they aren't coming from an analysis based on fairness, disciplinarian attitude, etc. Teachers who would take a period off every once in a while to grade exams for another class or teachers who would hand out extra credit points for little more than showing up were nothing more than a disservice to the students. That opinion won't change with time. If anything, it gets worse.


I'm not saying that your opinion of those specific teachers would change over time, I'm saying that your opinion of teachers in general seems to have not evolved and is still based solely on those experiences. If you drank a couple of beers and they were bad, would you say all beer sucks and not drink anymore? Who knows, maybe you never had a teacher that was any good. I find it a bit hard to believe, but I guess it's possible. But if you did have good teachers, you obviously give them far less weight than the teachers you had who were bad.

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:I'll agree it is a societal issue. It's up to the teachers to fix it. Get rid of the nepotism (as mentioned earlier) and the union protections that make it nearly impossible to remove an ineffective teacher and attitudes will start to change.


How do teachers get rid of nepotism? Refuse to accept a job that they are offered? The unions provide due process to teachers. If a district wants to fire a teacher, they can. They just have to go through the process. The school boards are the ones who refuse to go through the process, so instead they have the teacher put in a place that they think will "cause less damage." This is beyond idiotic. Have school boards do what is right and that would solve some of the problems.

I'm not a huge union advocate, and they certainly have faults. However, as I now see my current state ripping through public education I start wishing the union had more of a presence here.

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:Even if teaching profession is 80:20 outstanding:poor teachers, that's still a terrible number. Teaching is a service, and if 20% are failures, it is poor service.


What if a child has 100% outstanding teachers? Have they received poor service? Or maybe they had two bad teachers and the rest good teachers? Have they? I'm not sure why you insist on making this an all or nothing situation. There is no profession that has that.

It is a societal problem. Are teachers part of that problem? Yes. Parents? Yes. Kids? Yes. And an attitude that is shown by some is also a problem. The person that isn't a teacher or parent or student, but just a citizen. That person who just says, "It's the teachers who just need to straighten up." A lack of willingness to know what the problems really are, but instead look at it as a black and white issue.

edit to add: Politicians are another huge problem. By and large, they know nothing about education, yet make many of the decisions (federally, state-levely, and locally).
Last edited by MWB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby MWB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:57 pm

MRandall25 wrote:http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/08/12/Eighth-grade-exam-from-1912-is-kinda-hard/3441376322954/

8th grade exam from 1912. I'd wager most 8th graders (heck, most 12th graders) would probably fail this.
Image


We cover this in my fifth grade science class, so feel free to ask my students to answer those questions.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Rylan on Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:23 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:
shmenguin wrote:getting a business degree was so easy, it was almost comical. i guess there aren't any "upper echelon" businessmen in the world.


Because of the easiness of working through the classes for a business degree, I can not help but think I made a huge mistake in choosing my major.


Does that mean you should or shouldn't have majored in business ?


Depending on the day changes the answer.

(I am currently majoring in business)
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby columbia on Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:25 pm

Most successful business owners did not major in business, so not sure of the relevance.

That's not in response to you, Rylan, btw.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby MWB on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:10 am

From a couple years ago, but still a relevant read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opini ... html?_r=1&

Salary aspect:
In real terms, teachers’ salaries have declined for 30 years. The average starting salary is $39,000; the average ending salary — after 25 years in the profession — is $67,000. This prices teachers out of home ownership in 32 metropolitan areas, and makes raising a family on one salary near impossible. So how do teachers cope? Sixty-two percent work outside the classroom to make ends meet.


Possible solution:
The consulting firm McKinsey recently examined how we might attract and retain a talented teaching force. The study compared the treatment of teachers here and in the three countries that perform best on standardized tests: Finland, Singapore and South Korea.

Turns out these countries have an entirely different approach to the profession. First, the governments in these countries recruit top graduates to the profession. (We don’t.) In Finland and Singapore they pay for training. (We don’t.) In terms of purchasing power, South Korea pays teachers on average 250 percent of what we do.

And most of all, they trust their teachers. They are rightly seen as the solution, not the problem, and when improvement is needed, the school receives support and development, not punishment. Accordingly, turnover in these countries is startlingly low: In South Korea, it’s 1 percent per year. In Finland, it’s 2 percent. In Singapore, 3 percent.


No, these countries are not the same as the US. However, the strategies could work.

This part is inaccurate:
If any administration is capable of tackling this, it’s the current one. President Obama and Education Secretary Arne Duncan understand the centrality of teachers and have said that improving our education system begins and ends with great teachers.


Obama has done little, if anything. Duncan has been a detriment.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby Rylan on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:37 am

That last quote was definitely biased posturing. Obviously the Obama administration is the only one capable of tackling an issue since it is the only one currently in office. The historical administrations are done and future administrations are too unknown.

I hate sentences/opinions like that form an entire thought around something that is incapable of having alternatives.
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby the riddler on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:30 am

I'm thinking about going back to school to get a certificate/master's in secondary education, any suggestions as to what the best subject to get certified in? I know that it's already tough enough to get a teaching job and I don't want to make a mistake and get certified in a field that I won't get a job in. And if any of you have gone this route, how long does it usually take to complete a master's program?
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Re: LGP Education thread

Postby count2infinity on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:49 am

the riddler wrote:I'm thinking about going back to school to get a certificate/master's in secondary education, any suggestions as to what the best subject to get certified in? I know that it's already tough enough to get a teaching job and I don't want to make a mistake and get certified in a field that I won't get a job in. And if any of you have gone this route, how long does it usually take to complete a master's program?


Math and science are usually the two in demand. To put it in perspective, the year that I got hired as a chemistry teacher, I was one of 6 that applied for the job (and one of only 2 that was actually certified. They hired a social studies teacher that year as well, there were over 100 people that applied and the person that got hired was the nephew of 2 or 3 board members which is likely the reason he was hired.
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