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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:31 pm

Re-read what I said above:

One of the reasons why education should be primarily about teaching folks how to learn and how to teach themselves.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby count2infinity on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:31 pm

It's actually a very proven way in the sciences called discovery learning, Pavel.... they design lessons that have the students teach themselves the lessons. I'm not a huge fan of it, but some claim it works wonders. The thought is if they teach themselves through their own mistakes and success they learn it better.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:32 pm

count2infinity wrote:It's actually a very proven way in the sciences called discovery learning, Pavel.... they design lessons that have the students teach themselves the lessons. I'm not a huge fan of it, but some claim it works wonders. The thought is if they teach themselves through their own mistakes and success they learn it better.

I gotcha. The learning software example threw me off. Made no sense at all.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:34 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
count2infinity wrote:It's actually a very proven way in the sciences called discovery learning, Pavel.... they design lessons that have the students teach themselves the lessons. I'm not a huge fan of it, but some claim it works wonders. The thought is if they teach themselves through their own mistakes and success they learn it better.

I gotcha. The learning software example threw me off. Made no sense at all.


Again if you properly teach someone problem solving skills and how to read directions and comprehend them. (i.e.- teach them how to teach themselves.) you teach them how to teach themselves when presented with a new problem, like being given new software.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby count2infinity on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:36 pm

give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll lie about the size of the fish he caught sort of thing pbp?
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Gaucho on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:36 pm

Agreed, education should be about skills, not passing a test. Most teachers I know would readily agree with that.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:39 pm

count2infinity wrote:give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll lie about the size of the fish he caught sort of thing pbp?


Exactly :lol:
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:39 pm

Point Breeze Penguins wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
count2infinity wrote:It's actually a very proven way in the sciences called discovery learning, Pavel.... they design lessons that have the students teach themselves the lessons. I'm not a huge fan of it, but some claim it works wonders. The thought is if they teach themselves through their own mistakes and success they learn it better.

I gotcha. The learning software example threw me off. Made no sense at all.


Again if you properly teach someone problem solving skills and how to read directions and comprehend them. (i.e.- teach them how to teach themselves.) you teach them how to teach themselves when presented with a new problem, like being given new software.

What? No amount of problem solving skills would allow someone to pick up for example Mechanical Desktop and be able to use it in a satisfactory amount of time to be productive in a job. I think your concept is sound but your thoughts on how to execute it are flawed.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby count2infinity on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:16 pm

I'm not with pbp on a lot of things, but i'm with him on this one. The critical thinking and ability to problem solve is severely being lost now-a-days. Kids would get very angry with me when I wouldn't give them exact instructions on what to do in some of the labs they did. I made them try to figure it out themselves. Use their previous knowledge to gain new knowledge, and if they don't know something, go look it up and then come back to it. Teach them how to teach themselves, it's a concept that's pretty well known in education.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:21 pm

So you wanted your students to learn while you did as little as possible? You're an awesome teacher :pop:
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:22 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
Point Breeze Penguins wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
count2infinity wrote:It's actually a very proven way in the sciences called discovery learning, Pavel.... they design lessons that have the students teach themselves the lessons. I'm not a huge fan of it, but some claim it works wonders. The thought is if they teach themselves through their own mistakes and success they learn it better.

I gotcha. The learning software example threw me off. Made no sense at all.


Again if you properly teach someone problem solving skills and how to read directions and comprehend them. (i.e.- teach them how to teach themselves.) you teach them how to teach themselves when presented with a new problem, like being given new software.

What? No amount of problem solving skills would allow someone to pick up for example Mechanical Desktop and be able to use it in a satisfactory amount of time to be productive in a job. I think your concept is sound but your thoughts on how to execute it are flawed.

I agree P_B: He's right and wrong at the same time :scared: .
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby count2infinity on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:24 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:So you wanted your students to learn while you did as little as possible? You're an awesome teacher :pop:


lol, you're hilarious. It's actually a lot more work to do it my way than to give them cookie cutter labs where everything is all laid out for them.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:30 pm

count2infinity wrote:lol, you're hilarious.

Finally some recognition.

count2infinity wrote:It's actually a lot more work to do it my way than to give them cookie cutter labs where everything is all laid out for them.


Image
Last edited by Physical_Graffiti on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby MWB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:00 pm

Bottom line, you need to be able to teach in various ways to teach to various kids. There's no one correct approach or one way that works for everyone. I do agree that teaching kids to teach themselves, to become "lifelong learners," is a good goal. It's a long process and one that parents can help with a lot by not doing things for their kids so much. It's okay for kids to fail at something if they learn from it.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:14 pm

MWB wrote:Bottom line, you need to be able to teach in various ways to teach to various kids. There's no one correct approach or one way that works for everyone. I do agree that teaching kids to teach themselves, to become "lifelong learners," is a good goal. It's a long process and one that parents can help with a lot by not doing things for their kids so much. It's okay for kids to fail at something if they learn from it.


BUT THIS IS 'MURICA. OUR KIDS SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WORK TO DONE GUD IN SKOOL
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby count2infinity on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:14 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
count2infinity wrote:lol, you're hilarious.

Finally some recognition.

count2infinity wrote:It's actually a lot more work to do it my way than to give them cookie cutter labs where everything is all laid out for them.


Image


well...luckily i quit the teaching lifestyle because all i did was sit around all day waiting until that clock hit 3:15 so i could go home. now i have a real job. :roll:
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:17 pm

I wish I had a real job :(.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby count2infinity on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:20 pm

i guess we all can't be as lucky as I am...
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:28 pm

count2infinity wrote:I'm not with pbp on a lot of things, but i'm with him on this one. The critical thinking and ability to problem solve is severely being lost now-a-days. Kids would get very angry with me when I wouldn't give them exact instructions on what to do in some of the labs they did. I made them try to figure it out themselves. Use their previous knowledge to gain new knowledge, and if they don't know something, go look it up and then come back to it. Teach them how to teach themselves, it's a concept that's pretty well known in education.

That's constructivism to a T, force them to call on prior knowledge to learn new things. But you did provide them with enough of a base (scaffolding) that you knew and were confident they had all the tools needed to discover the new. It's not like you threw them into the lab with no knowledge and told them to figure it out because they should teach themselves.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:28 pm

count2infinity wrote:i guess we all can't be as lucky as I am...


If you don't mind me asking, what do you do now instead of teaching?
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby MWB on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:28 pm

count2infinity wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:
count2infinity wrote:lol, you're hilarious.

Finally some recognition.

count2infinity wrote:It's actually a lot more work to do it my way than to give them cookie cutter labs where everything is all laid out for them.


Image


well...luckily i quit the teaching lifestyle because all i did was sit around all day waiting until that clock hit 3:15 so i could go home. now i have a real job. :roll:


I only have to wait until 2:30. :pop:
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Draftnik on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:38 pm

Eddie Murphy summed it up well years ago when he said (paraphrasing) "follow a stupid kid home and a stupid parent opens the door."

If parents aren't serious about making sure their kids are high educational achievers the best teachers in the world won't coach them up to be smart kids at the macro level.
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:42 pm

Draftnik wrote:Eddie Murphy summed it up well years ago when he said (paraphrasing) "follow a stupid kid home and a stupid parent opens the door."

If parents aren't serious about making sure their kids are high educational achievers the best teachers in the world won't coach them up to be smart kids at the macro level.

And guess who breeds the most. :(
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:15 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
count2infinity wrote:I'm not with pbp on a lot of things, but i'm with him on this one. The critical thinking and ability to problem solve is severely being lost now-a-days. Kids would get very angry with me when I wouldn't give them exact instructions on what to do in some of the labs they did. I made them try to figure it out themselves. Use their previous knowledge to gain new knowledge, and if they don't know something, go look it up and then come back to it. Teach them how to teach themselves, it's a concept that's pretty well known in education.

That's constructivism to a T, force them to call on prior knowledge to learn new things. But you did provide them with enough of a base (scaffolding) that you knew and were confident they had all the tools needed to discover the new. It's not like you threw them into the lab with no knowledge and told them to figure it out because they should teach themselves.


Who was advocating that?
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Re: What Americans keep ignoring about Finland's school succ

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:20 pm

Like I said that's what you seemed to be suggesting with the software example. No biggie.
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