The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:33 pm

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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:36 pm

There are multiple surveillance/reconnaissance assets deployed to the Black Sea area that are based on commercial airliner airframes. The E-3 AWACS platform and E-8 J-STARS are both based on the Boeing 707, for example. I don't think it's a huge stretch to believe that some nitwit manning an anti-air station made the determination that the aircraft was violating Ukraine airspace and deemed it a threat.

And I don't think this was a case of someone launching a shoulder-fired missile based on a mistaken visual ID. Those systems rarely have the capability to reach out more than ~12,000 feet from the launch position, and that covers the combination of target altitude and distance. MH17 was reportedly at an altitude of 33,000 feet when contact was lost.

I have not yet heard anyone making the claim that it was an air-to-air engagement that brought down the airliner, as happened with KAL007 in 1983, and KAL902 in 1978.

Again...... if the aircraft was shot down.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby stopper40 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:40 pm

tifosi77 wrote:There are multiple surveillance/reconnaissance assets deployed to the Black Sea area that are based on commercial airliner airframes. The E-3 AWACS platform and E-8 J-STARS are both based on the Boeing 707, for example. I don't think it's a huge stretch to believe that some nitwit manning an anti-air station made the determination that the aircraft was violating Ukraine airspace and deemed it a threat.

And I don't think this was a case of someone launching a shoulder-fired missile based on a mistaken visual ID. Those systems rarely have the capability to reach out more than ~12,000 feet from the launch position, and that covers the combination of target altitude and distance. MH17 was reportedly at an altitude of 33,000 feet when contact was lost.

I have not yet heard anyone making the claim that it was an air-to-air engagement that brought down the airliner, as happened with KAL007 in 1983, and KAL902 in 1978.

Again...... if the aircraft was shot down.


Mr Gerashchenko was quoted as saying: “A civilian airliner travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has just been shot down by a Buk anti-aircraft system... 280 passengers and 15 crew have been killed.


http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/s ... ax-2014071
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:40 pm

Troy Loney wrote:So this this is two planes they've shot down?

I'm talking about historical stuff. They shot down Korean Air Line flight 007 in 1983, destroying the aircraft and killing all on board. A few years before that, on the other side of the USSR, they shot at another Korean Air Line flight, 902, and killed two passengers and forced the aircraft to make an emergency landing (on a frozen lake in Finland, iirc). Both of those were air-to-air engagements where the pilots had visually ID'd the aircraft as carrying civilian markings, but were still ordered to open fire by senior ground controllers.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:44 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:So this this is two planes they've shot down?

I'm talking about historical stuff. They shot down Korean Air Line flight 007 in 1983, destroying the aircraft and killing all on board. A few years before that, on the other side of the USSR, they shot at another Korean Air Line flight, 902, and killed two passengers and forced the aircraft to make an emergency landing (on a frozen lake in Finland, iirc). Both of those were air-to-air engagements where the pilots had visually ID'd the aircraft as carrying civilian markings, but were still ordered to open fire by senior ground controllers.


Ok, but the new round of sanctions imposed on Russian Energy companies, I thought that was in response to them shooting down a Ukrainian plane.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:45 pm

No, that was in response to the first round of sanctions being laughed at several months ago.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:47 pm

tifosi77 wrote:No, that was in response to the first round of sanctions being laughed at several months ago.



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world ... ref=world#
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:49 pm

This is hearsay on top of hearsay, but....

Supposedly some Russians were bragging about shooting down a cargo plane in the same area and it was even reported in official Russian news. Then taken down, after it the airliner was discovered.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:06 pm

stopper40 wrote:
Mr Gerashchenko was quoted as saying: “A civilian airliner travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has just been shot down by a Buk anti-aircraft system... 280 passengers and 15 crew have been killed.


http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/s ... ax-2014071

NATO has a 'reporting name' convention to designate aircraft, weapons systems, etc of other countries. (Because the native language name is often hard to pronounce or makes no sense) Fighter aircraft are always given a word that begins in 'F'..... Foxbat, Flogger, Fulcrum, Flanker. The MiG-15 was called 'Fagot'. Missile systems are given reporting names that start with 'G', and the naval variant of the Buk has been given the reporting name 'Gollum'.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby stopper40 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:09 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
stopper40 wrote:
Mr Gerashchenko was quoted as saying: “A civilian airliner travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has just been shot down by a Buk anti-aircraft system... 280 passengers and 15 crew have been killed.


http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/s ... ax-2014071

NATO has a 'reporting name' convention to designate aircraft, weapons systems, etc of other countries. (Because the native language name is often hard to pronounce or makes no sense) Fighter aircraft are always given a word that begins in 'F'..... Foxbat, Flogger, Fulcrum, Flanker. The MiG-15 was called 'Fagot'. Missile systems are given reporting names that start with 'G', and the naval variant of the Buk has been given the reporting name 'Gollum'.


The Buk missile system is the successor to the NIIP/Vympel 2K12 Kub (NATO reporting name SA-6 "Gainful").[3] The first version of Buk adopted into service carried the GRAU designation 9K37 and was identified in the west with the NATO reporting name "Gadfly" as well as the US Department of Defense designation SA-11
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:14 pm

Just a tip, but if you are going to copy-paste out of Wikipedia, you might want to delete the footnote number.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby stopper40 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:20 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Just a tip, but if you are going to copy-paste out of Wikipedia, you might want to delete the footnote number.


My bad I missed it
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:34 pm

:wink:
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:58 pm

In other news...

California death penalty ruled unconstitutional
A federal judge declared California's death penalty unconstitutional Wednesday, saying delays of 25 years or more in deciding appeals and carrying out occasional executions have created an arbitrary and irrational system that serves no legitimate purpose.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge Cormac Carney [W Bush appointee - Tif] of Santa Ana was limited to a single case and had no immediate impact on executions statewide, which have been halted by federal courts since 2006 because of multiple problems in lethal injection procedures.


It is interesting to note that in his ruling he expressly refutes the commonly believed notion that the lengthy delays between sentencing and execution (often more than 25 year in CA) are the result of systemic abuses by defense attorneys filing motion after motion and endlessly appealing. Rather, he says that the cause of the delays are completely inherent in the system itself. For example, it can take 3-5 years simply for a qualified public defender to be appointed to the case. CA has some onerous restrictions on who can represent capital defendants through the appellate process; one attorney called into a radio show this morning and said that he has over 20 years experience as a prosecutor and defender and has been involved in over 40 capital cases.... but he is not qualified to shepherd a capital appeal in CA. After that, it can take 14 years for the CA Supreme Court to even hear the case. There have been nearly 100 people die on death row of natural causes or suicide in the time since capital punishment was reinstated, while only 13 people have actually been executed.

Also of note, the host of that radio show is a PA native and practicing (civil) attorney. He pointed out that since capital punishment was reinstated in the 70s, there have only been three people executed in PA.... and all three of those voluntarily ended their appeals to go to their deaths. The last time a person who was contesting their sentence was executed in PA was in the 1960s.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:05 pm

Good
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:07 pm

So..right result, wrong reason?
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:13 pm

I actually agree with the reasoning, I just never expected a conservative appointee in Orange County to arrive at the same conclusion. Some pundits are saying it will be reversed on appeal, but if it is upheld that will end capital punishment in CA.

For the record, I am pro-death penalty and think it should be available as punishment for a slightly wider spectrum of crimes..... but it should be sought far less frequently than it presently is, and there should be more of a 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' standard of proof at the trial phase.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:21 pm

America wrote:**** Russia


you need to be in this thread far more often than you are. :lol:
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:35 pm





Yoi.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby Hockeynut! on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:39 pm

columbia wrote:



Yoi.

:shock:
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:40 pm

Yes, that's the appropriate emoticon.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:43 pm

Not that any life is more valuable than others, but 23 Americans were apparently on the flight.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/ ... ia-border/
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby newarenanow on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:05 pm

Isreal sending in ground troops to Gaza.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby newarenanow on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:06 pm

Fox has a photo of a firefighter putting out a fire at the wreckage and there are like 3 dead bodies laying there.
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Re: The "Official" LGP thread of Current Events

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:10 pm

I bet that crash made them dead.
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