Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:20 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Racism is not worse today in the white community than it is in the black community.

I invite *any* of you to come up here to NY and ride the A-Train with me on a Saturday night at 2am.


Ok. I'm not sure in get your point? That the black community is also racist? That would seem to indicate poor race relations.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:21 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:No not like voting... Are you saying that Blacks are being turned away at polling sites because of their color?

I'm having a really hard time believing that people believe this is a thing of the past.

ExPatriatePen wrote:Let me use the same debating tactic you used with me over voter ID initiatives:

"I challenge you to show me evidence that any American was denied the right to vote based on the color of their skin or their race"

And the only time frame that's relevant is modern times, going back 50 years or more is inane.

It's not really about any one specific case, but rather a pattern of behavior and actions. For example, take Shelby Co., AL - the county at the heart of the recent Voting Rights Act case. During SCOTUS oral arguments, it was pointed out that in the time period since the most recent reauthorization of the VRA, Shelby Co. had lost 240 pre-clearance attempts. That means their efforts to change their voting laws and procedures were found as being discriminatory 240 times..... in the last six years.

You can also look to the effects of things like staffing and equipping voting places in predominantly minority precincts versus predominantly white precincts, and what that means in terms of the number of people who turn up to vote versus those who actually get to cast a ballot. It was estimated that over 20,000 minority voters were not able to cast ballots in FL in 2012 because of this.

I don't have any inherent issue with voter ID laws, but my complaints about many of the more recent efforts are three-fold: 1) the infrastructure and timelines for implementation for some (particularly PA) were inadequate; 2) they address a non-existent problem, and; 3) they address it in a way that wouldn't necessarily solve the problem.


ExPatriatePen wrote:Which, by the way, leads me to your first issue. No one is saying that there weren't race issues in the past. But in the last 6 years there have been ZERO presidents that weren't black. ZERO AG's that weren't black, etc... using "all of history" is a fools argument. Unless we aren't talking about the state of race relations TODAY.

It's the appropriate response given the examples that were cited. You imply by your argument that because there have been six black people to make it to high office in this country that the issue of race relations is done and dusted. "Well, kids... Colin Powell was both CJCS and SecState, and now there's a black president. As if by magic, racial animus is erased and the country farts rainbows."

Has there been progress? Certainly. Has that progress been impressive? In nearly all instances, yes. Has the problem been eradicated? Not at all.

ExPatriatePen wrote:BtW, name something that would be the first for a black person in 2013... there aren't to many left are there?
Shop at LL Bean.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:31 pm

MWB wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Racism is not worse today in the white community than it is in the black community.

I invite *any* of you to come up here to NY and ride the A-Train with me on a Saturday night at 2am.


Ok. I'm not sure in get your point? That the black community is also racist? That would seem to indicate poor race relations.


That I will grant you.

I've always maintained that there's no place for racial preference or racial bias of any sort in today's society.

Where I differ from the "White Guilt" crowd is that they seem to think that today's generation of 20 year old Caucasians should be penalized for what happened 50 years or more ago.

B.S.

Racial bias was wrong then, and reversing the score is, to draw a sports analogy, like a make-up call in hockey.

If your're not going to throw racial bias out today, then when?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:38 pm

Perhaps some of you didn't grow up in a place similar to Bedford County and visit there on a regular basis to know that racism is, in fact, alive and well.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:38 pm

Expressing a concern for racial animus != advocating affirmative action.
You're moving the goalposts pretty quickly.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:41 pm

columbia wrote:Expressing a concern for racial animus != advocating affirmative action.
You're moving the goalposts pretty quickly.


Fair enough.

My irritation is with the "White guilt crowd" who wants to see Whitey pay for the "sins" of others.

But I'll agree with the != point you're making.

count2infinity wrote:Perhaps some of you didn't grow up in a place similar to Bedford County and visit there on a regular basis to know that racism is, in fact, alive and well.


I argue with NY'ers all the time who think NY is representative of the rest of the US. Your Bedford county argument is similar.

I probably spend more time criss-crossing this country than any other LGP'er, and I can tell you that those arguments are hollow.

Sure there's a problem in Northern Mississippi, and there's a problem in the Bronx. If you haven't experienced both, whats your reference point?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:50 pm

so there are issues across the nation, but there aren't problems across the nation? I don't get it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:55 pm

count2infinity wrote:so there are issues across the nation, but there aren't problems across the nation? I don't get it.


Come on C2I, if you're looking for perfection, TIF's "Americas Farting Rainbows" scenerio, well good luck...

However, if you're trying to say that it's so widespread that all of America should be subject to Draconian reverse discrimination measures because some backwoods county in PA (or WV for that matter) is behind the times, well...
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:59 pm

it's not localized to just small little places here and there. I truly believe it's getting better, but racism is still alive and well in both Caucasian communities, such as Bedford County (btw 50% of our population in this nation live in rural communities do they not) and African American communities such as those in inner cities. To deny that racism and race related issues dosn't still exist... really?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:01 pm

Yeah I would say a majority of people are not racist anymore, so it is not the major problem it once was.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:04 pm

Grunthy wrote:Yeah I would say a majority of people are not racist anymore, so it is not the major problem it once was.


I will agree that a majority of people are not racist, and is not nearly the problem that it once was, but to suggest that it's problem solved is a bit of a stretch...
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:07 pm

Grunthy wrote:Yeah I would say a majority of people are not racist anymore, so it is not the major problem it once was.

Thank you!

The rest of you need to quit listening to all that angry Rap music... :) ;)
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:14 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
I've always maintained that there's no place for racial preference or racial bias of any sort in today's society.


No, there isn't. I just think it still exists though, probably in a more widespread way than you do.

ExPatriatePen wrote:Where I differ from the "White Guilt" crowd is that they seem to think that today's generation of 20 year old Caucasians should be penalized for what happened 50 years or more ago.

B.S.

Racial bias was wrong then, and reversing the score is, to draw a sports analogy, like a make-up call in hockey.

If your're not going to throw racial bias out today, then when?


I'm not part of that crowd, so I agree with your statement.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:16 pm

count2infinity wrote:
Grunthy wrote:Yeah I would say a majority of people are not racist anymore, so it is not the major problem it once was.


I will agree that a majority of people are not racist, and is not nearly the problem that it once was, but to suggest that it's problem solved is a bit of a stretch...



As long as there are differences in people(white, black, religious, non-religious, etc.) there will always be prejudice. I know I know how cynical of me to think that people cannot play nice...
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:35 pm

To quote that Ultra-Liberal, left wing radical, Robert Zimmerman... "Things have changed"

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:41 pm

count2infinity wrote:it's not localized to just small little places here and there. I truly believe it's getting better, but racism is still alive and well in both Caucasian communities, such as Bedford County (btw 50% of our population in this nation live in rural communities do they not) and African American communities such as those in inner cities. To deny that racism and race related issues dosn't still exist... really?

The question is to what extent they still exist, and whether that matches the perception of racism. I wish I had the book in front of me, but I believe in one of his books (it might have been The Ten Things You Can't Say in America) Larry Elder discussed a survey on racism that had been done on black and white teenagers and young adults. The black respondents were asked how much of an impact racism or discrimination had on their lives and how big of a problem they thought it was. While respondents were asked to what extent they thought racism and discrimination were affecting black people and how big of a problem they thought it was. Interestingly, whites responded that they thought racism was affecting black Americans at rates that were far higher than black persons reported it was actually affecting them. White respondents also were significantly more likely to say that racism was a problem than the black respondents.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Keep in mind that in the areas that I'm discussing, there are very few black people in the population. With less black people in the area, sure the whites in the area are going to know what other whites are saying about blacks. Want to guess Bedford County's African american population? 0.6% (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42/42009.html) Now is it a racial issue if there's no Blacks around to hear it? Because if no, then sure Bedford county doesn't have any racists at all. Do you have the opposite info, shyster? What percent of black people thought whites were discriminated against vs. what white people actually think?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:25 pm

Larry Elder is an idiot. (Of course I use the term figuratively; I'm sure he's quite an intelligent man.) I've had the sheer unmitigated torture of having his show sqwak at me for several years now, in addition to his frequent appearances on local TV. I'd rather watch a pr0n movie with my own mother in it than listen to him shriek about, well, just about anything. The only guy I rank lower is Mark Levin, and at least half his ranking is because of the unique tonal characteristics of his voice.

Sorry, I just react badly to seeing or hearing his name.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:41 pm

count2infinity wrote:Keep in mind that in the areas that I'm discussing, there are very few black people in the population. With less black people in the area, sure the whites in the area are going to know what other whites are saying about blacks. Want to guess Bedford County's African american population? 0.6% (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42/42009.html) Now is it a racial issue if there's no Blacks around to hear it? Because if no, then sure Bedford county doesn't have any racists at all. Do you have the opposite info, shyster? What percent of black people thought whites were discriminated against vs. what white people actually think?

No, although that would be an interesting data point.

Whether those people would be racist is a question that may depend on one's definition of the term. I have repeatedly heard—and always from a black speaker—that disliking people of another race is merely prejudice. Racism, according to this line of thought, requires the power to impose one’s prejudiced views on people of the victim race. What is generally unsaid is that the people who believe this also believe that only whites have the requisite power, so non-whites can never be racist no matter how much they, for example, hate and despise those creepy-ass crackers. Under this definition, how could one be racist if there are no black people around to oppress?

Of course, if you view the above definition as merely a way for racist people to rationalize away their racist views as not being racist, then white people in Bedford County could certainly be racist, just as black people in a 99% black neighborhood could also be.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby pensfan1989 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:52 pm

I would argue that many of the voting issues with lines and such arise from the insistence that people not be required to register before they vote. When I voted last fall the line for the provisional ballots was huge. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to have to register a few months out so that these precincts can be adequately prepared for crowds.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:58 pm

Hence one of the several reasons for early and expanded voting periods.
But some people don't like that.

We can only assume that they don't like certain people voting.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:11 am

Limiting the definition of racism to those who are in political power is far too narrow a scope, because it excuses abhorrent behavior from those not in power. Racism is simply the belief that people of a certain race or ethnicity are inherently inferior to your own race or ethnicity. Acting upon that belief to shape public policy is I think more accurately described as discrimination. Not every act of discrimination is racist, nor are racists inherently discriminatory. By way of example, consider all the measures enacted in the wake of the Voting Rights Act gut punch: In my heart, I don't think the majority Republican legislatures see African Americans as inherently inferior because they are black and therefore do not deserve to have voting districts drawn in a way such that they might elect someone from their community to represent them in the legislature. I think they merely see a massive collection of Democrats and so draw districts up to prevent them gaining a majority. That isn't necessarily racist, but it's nakedly discriminatory.

pensfan1989 wrote:I would argue that many of the voting issues with lines and such arise from the insistence that people not be required to register before they vote. When I voted last fall the line for the provisional ballots was huge. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to have to register a few months out so that these precincts can be adequately prepared for crowds.

Pre-registration has nothing to do with certain precincts being allocated 10% of the staff and equipment of others. (Which is precisely what some measures - for example, in Texas - foist upon the electorate.)
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:47 am

tifosi77 wrote:I think they merely see a massive collection of Democrats and so draw districts up to prevent them gaining a majority. That isn't necessarily racist, but it's nakedly discriminatory.


discrimination is something you use everyday in choosing where to eat, what car to drive, where to buy your gasoline, is non-racial discrimination now a bad thing?

(The recent IRS decisions out of the Cincinnati office are a perfect example of this administrations politically discriminatory behaviors - Hell, graduated Taxation rates themselves are discriminatory)

pensfan1989 wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:I would argue that many of the voting issues with lines and such arise from the insistence that people not be required to register before they vote. When I voted last fall the line for the provisional ballots was huge. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to have to register a few months out so that these precincts can be adequately prepared for crowds.

Pre-registration has nothing to do with certain precincts being allocated 10% of the staff and equipment of others. (Which is precisely what some measures - for example, in Texas - foist upon the electorate.)


Links? (From undiscriminatory sources??? ;) )

Certainly, if there is a concentrated effort to under staff specific polling sites in order to gain advantage, that's wrong, but as you point out, it's not a racial thing, is a political party affiliation thing (Still wrong, but NOT race related)

And pre-voter registration requirements (and ID requirements) just make sense in 201x as long as they're applied across the board.

But come on folks, you can't use the racial prejudice of the past to justify reverse prejudice today.

Even the recent Supreme Court decision on Racial Preference (Discrimination) in admissions, didn't abolish using race:

Any university, public or private, that considers race or ethnicity as a factor in admitting students "needs to be very careful to be able to demonstrate, if challenged, that they have considered race-neutral alternatives and that their system is narrowly tailored to achieve the educational benefits of diversity," said Ada Meloy, general counsel for the American Council on Education, a non-profit umbrella group for higher education.


When was the last time you heard of a traditional black college admitting whites or Asians in order to achieve racial diversity?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:32 am

EPP, i think the first part of your quote seriously damaged my brain.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:43 am

Kaizer wrote:EPP, i think the first part of your quote seriously damaged my brain.

I always thought being of discriminating tastes was a compliment.

:)

I know better now.
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