Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:51 am

PensFanInDC wrote:This is my point. It's a stupid argument to say "I dont see a need to own this object so NOBODY should own it".

Yes, the automobile argument is ridiculous. It was used to show how ridiculous the "nobody should own one" argument is. "Just because YOU don't see the need to own one doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to own one."


You can't force people to behave like a decent human being, but it never hurts to ask.
That's my stance on guns: I ask that people consider whether the benefits (as they perceive them) really outweigh the potential cost (harm to themselves or others).

It's probably about as successful as a Jehovah Witness or Mormon knocking on someone's door, so :shrug:.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:52 am

This is insanity. I'm going to separate myself from this conversation.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:52 am

I just think it's weird that what you view as a "stupid argument", lots of people view as common sense.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:55 am

Lots of people think its common sense for people to have automatic weapons available to all? I am not looking at a poll, but i'm sure that quite the opposite is true. What you just said confirms to me that this conversation is insane.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:57 am

Idoit40fans wrote:Lots of people think its common sense for people to have automatic weapons available to all? I am not looking at a poll, but i'm sure that quite the opposite is true. What you just said confirms to me that this conversation is insane.


My initial comment was fecitious. I think it's common sense to not allow people to have automatic rifles.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:59 am

You'd be right. People can't get automatic rifles.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:06 am

how did this thread turn into an automatic rifles conversation???
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:07 am

count2infinity wrote:how did this thread turn into an automatic rifles conversation???


Because there's nothing left to argue about with this case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby viva la ben on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:07 am

People can and do buy machine guns. There is extensive paperwork and background checks to acquire one. They are extremly expensive..and nearly never used to commit a crime
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:11 am

Contrary to what the media stations want you to believe, 99.99999% of all the guns in civilian hands in the U.S. are NOT fully automatic. All those references to scarey AR-15's and AK-47's out there. Well 99.99999% of them are NOT fully automatic. They are semi automatic just like a regular semi auto hunting rifle or semi auto duck hunting shotgun. There is nothing sinister about them that makes them any more deadly.

The media is playing people misunderstanding of firearms into making them look more scarey and create bigger news stories. Usually people spouting off about banning those assault weapons think they are machine guns capable of full auto fire.

Another thing to think about, Police officers are only allowed to shoot someone in self defense or in defense of others. So why do they need the scary black guns as well? The only logical argument is that police may be more likely to encounter a situation where they may need to utilize the firearm in self defense, but that it still gets down to the point of which type of firearm is the best suited for self defense situations. On the street it usually is a handgun because you can't really carry around a rifgle or shotgun. In my home my first choice is an AR-15 semi automatic, my last choice is my handgun.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:29 am

Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:39 am

count2infinity wrote:Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?


Honestly, my statement about automatic weapons was probably worded wrong. Forgive me, as I don't know much about the different categories of guns. My statement/opinion is that weapons like the one used in the Sandy Hook shooting have no place in our society. Beyond the rush of some sort of power trip, why would someone feel the need to have such a weapon that is capable of murder on such a grand scale if they didn't intend to actually kill on such a grand scale?

PensFanInDC wrote:I don't see the need for someone to possess an automobile. They aren't needed to get to work or to the store, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for deadly accidents and/or murder.


LGP in a nutshell: a group of people having an intelligent discussion about the differences in opinion and then someone jumps and blows things out of proportion. :face:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:40 am

count2infinity wrote:Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?



Not very easily. You most likely have to do some metal fabrication / milling of the receiver to be able to fit in a full auto fire control group and bolt. Unless you really know what you are doing its very hard to get a semi gun converted into full auto that is reliable and doesn't constantly jam / malfunction.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:44 am

topshelf wrote:Honestly, my statement about automatic weapons was probably worded wrong. Forgive me, as I don't know much about the different categories of guns. My statement/opinion is that weapons like the one used in the Sandy Hook shooting have no place in our society. Beyond the rush of some sort of power trip, why would someone feel the need to have such a weapon that is capable of murder on such a grand scale if they didn't intend to actually kill on such a grand scale?
[ :face:


That is the whole problem right there, The gun used in Sandy Hook functions no differently then any semi auto hunting rifle or shotgun out there. There is nothing about the gun that makes it more deadly then any other semi auto gun out there. The media has a lot of people fooled about the capabilities of the gun. The capability of pretty much every firearm is only limited by the users intent, which is the real problem here, not the gun itself.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:45 am

ffemtreed wrote:
topshelf wrote:Honestly, my statement about automatic weapons was probably worded wrong. Forgive me, as I don't know much about the different categories of guns. My statement/opinion is that weapons like the one used in the Sandy Hook shooting have no place in our society. Beyond the rush of some sort of power trip, why would someone feel the need to have such a weapon that is capable of murder on such a grand scale if they didn't intend to actually kill on such a grand scale?
[ :face:


That is the whole problem right there, The gun used in Sandy Hook functions no differently then any semi auto hunting rifle or shotgun out there. There is nothing about the gun that makes it more deadly then any other semi auto gun out there. The media has a lot of people fooled about the capabilities of the gun. The capability of pretty much every firearm is only limited by the users intent, which is the real problem here, not the gun itself.


Thanks for clearing that up. Question: does one actually need a gun that fires off rounds at that rate to hunt?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:47 am

topshelf wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:
topshelf wrote:Honestly, my statement about automatic weapons was probably worded wrong. Forgive me, as I don't know much about the different categories of guns. My statement/opinion is that weapons like the one used in the Sandy Hook shooting have no place in our society. Beyond the rush of some sort of power trip, why would someone feel the need to have such a weapon that is capable of murder on such a grand scale if they didn't intend to actually kill on such a grand scale?
[ :face:


That is the whole problem right there, The gun used in Sandy Hook functions no differently then any semi auto hunting rifle or shotgun out there. There is nothing about the gun that makes it more deadly then any other semi auto gun out there. The media has a lot of people fooled about the capabilities of the gun. The capability of pretty much every firearm is only limited by the users intent, which is the real problem here, not the gun itself.


Thanks for clearing that up. Question: does one actually need a gun that fires off rounds at that rate to hunt?



If you are hunting waterfowl with a shotgun, or dangerous game with a rifle then yes, quick follow up shots are necessary. In a self defense situation quick followup shots are defiantly needed.

PS -- the gun only fires as fast as you pull the trigger.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:54 am

ffemtreed wrote:If you are hunting waterfowl with a shotgun, or dangerous game with a rifle then yes, quick follow up shots are necessary. In a self defense situation quick followup shots are defiantly needed.

PS -- the gun only fires as fast as you pull the trigger.


Thanks again. I figured what you said about the trigger was true, but do they not fire off multiple rounds per trigger pull?

Again, they are just differences in opinion, but I don't see the need for people to possess a gun like that when it can be used in such a horrific way. Maybe it is because I've never seen the draw in hunting/killing for fun. To each his/her own.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:58 am

topshelf wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:If you are hunting waterfowl with a shotgun, or dangerous game with a rifle then yes, quick follow up shots are necessary. In a self defense situation quick followup shots are defiantly needed.

PS -- the gun only fires as fast as you pull the trigger.


Thanks again. I figured what you said about the trigger was true, but do they not fire off multiple rounds per trigger pull?

Again, they are just differences in opinion, but I don't see the need for people to possess a gun like that when it can be used in such a horrific way. Maybe it is because I've never seen the draw in hunting/killing for fun. To each his/her own.



No the guns do NOT fire off multiple rounds per pull of the trigger unless they are fully automatic. 1 press of the trigger = 1 round of ammunition fired.

To me, my guns are for self defense, and target shooting sports, not hunting.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:58 am

No they do not fire multiple rounds per trigger pull.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:08 pm

my A2 and A4 could fire 3 rounds per pull, but that doesnt really apply.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:53 pm

topshelf wrote:I don't see the need for someone to possess an assault weapon/automatic weapon. They aren't needed to hunt or for self defense, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for mass murder (as we've seen recently).

They - long guns - are actually just about the most effective self-defense weapons ever invented. The only reason they aren't more ubiquitous in the role (and why I don't use one for the purpose) is they are a little cumbersome to store in a convenient and safe location suitable to the task, and they can be a bit unwieldy in tight spaces. But nothing points more naturally, and nothing has more initial stopping power, they are more accurate at longer distances (even across the room), etc. Rifles, carbines and shotguns are all exceptional self-defense weapons.

topshelf wrote:In regards to owner liability, I believe that if you wish to own a gun then you should assume the proper responsibility that it takes to own said gun. This means keeping your gun in a safe and secure place so that accidents cannot happen. I'm not talking about a situation where someone breaks into your house or car and steals your gun, but the situations where one leaves it in an easy to find spot and a kid takes it and has an accident with it. In my mind, that situation resulted from owner negligence and the owner should be punished for that.

Twenty-seven states already have laws that expressly define the scenario you describe as negligence, and I believe in all but a couple of the other twenty-three states courts have held such activity to satisfy the existing definitions of negligence.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:37 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Twenty-seven states already have laws that expressly define the scenario you describe as negligence, and I believe in all but a couple of the other twenty-three states courts have held such activity to satisfy the existing definitions of negligence.


That's reassuring to hear. Hopefully the other 23 will hop on board.

My feelings on all of this stem from the fact that, for a civilized nation, we have a gun problem. This isn't to say that all gun owners are problem, but it is a problem nonetheless.

In 2010, the United States had 8,775 murders via fire arms. In the U.K., there were 58 murders via fire arms in 2011. The United States' population is roughly 5 times larger (4.8, actually) than Britain's population, so, to make the numbers comparable, lets say there were 290 murders in the U.K. that year.

8,775 compared to 290. In the United States, roughly 88% of the population carry guns while only 6% do in the U.K.

What's the difference? It can't be movies or video games, as they have the same ones. Is it our culture? We are a nation where guns are held sacred, and people are willing to give up just about every other right before they give up their gun rights. Could that be it? Or is it the fact that our media and politics have created such a large "me vs. everyone else" and "screw everyone else" mentality that people have become so disenfranchised that they no longer value another's life?

I'm asking these questions because I don't have an answer, but my hunch lies in the fact that part of the problem is 88% of the people in this country own guns.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:45 pm

yeah you cannot compare gun rates between the US and the UK.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:53 pm

the US has more scumbags per capita than the UK. also, i don't believe there are places like camden new jersey or detroit in england. i think guns do play some role in the gap there, but it's more of a socioeconomic thing, IMO.

i don't think it's very important that people have the right to own firearms, and i wish it was THE reason that we're in such bad shape with violent crime (as it would be easier to fix), but that's not the case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby GSdrums87 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:55 pm

shmenguin wrote:the US has more scumbags per capita than the UK. also, i don't believe there are places like camden new jersey or detroit in england. i think guns do play some role in the gap there, but it's more of a socioeconomic thing, IMO.

i don't think it's very important that people have the right to own firearms, and i wish it was THE reason that we're in such bad shape with violent crime (as it would be easier to fix), but that's not the case.

Even places like Harrisburg don't appear to exist in the UK. 15th in violence per capita, represent :wink:
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