Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:01 am

ffemtreed wrote:

You are way over simplifying what needs to be done to convert to full auto and the skill level needed to do the extra milling, drilling and modifications to the receiver. Even a well trained professional gun smith can't accomplish the task on most firearms in 30 minutes. Most ordinary people don't posses the precision milling tools to be able to the work. We are talking thousandths of an inch accuracy. If you miss by a 100th the gun will just jam. That is just the milling part, a lot of receivers also need some fine point welding done as well. There is a lot of FALSE info out there about how to make guns, particularity AR-15's full auto. I laugh hard every time I hear someone say you just need to file down the firing pin, or grind down the dissconector on the trigger , or get a lightning link.

As for your comment about parts being available as kits at gun shows is very wrong as well. It is very very very illegal for anyone of possess these kits. the ATF doesn't play around with people who sell and distribute any sort of kits. If you need a reference just look up the ATF constructive possession cases. Which basically state if you have the parts to make a full auto gun then you are considered in possession of a full auto gun and better have the proper credentials to possess a full auto gun.


the question was, "can it be done" and the answer, as simple as it is is "yes". I never said it was easy or hard. your use of the word "most" is misleading as well. most can't but some can and criminals are figuring out new ways to modify guns every day. making kits "illegal" doesn't stop people from selling them, mostly because they know there's a market for them. there will always be people who will want to do something just because someone else says that it can't be done.

on a related note: I'm not a hunter so maybe someone can explain to me, why would you need a semi-auto weapon for hunting?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:16 am

shoeshine boy wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:

You are way over simplifying what needs to be done to convert to full auto and the skill level needed to do the extra milling, drilling and modifications to the receiver. Even a well trained professional gun smith can't accomplish the task on most firearms in 30 minutes. Most ordinary people don't posses the precision milling tools to be able to the work. We are talking thousandths of an inch accuracy. If you miss by a 100th the gun will just jam. That is just the milling part, a lot of receivers also need some fine point welding done as well. There is a lot of FALSE info out there about how to make guns, particularity AR-15's full auto. I laugh hard every time I hear someone say you just need to file down the firing pin, or grind down the dissconector on the trigger , or get a lightning link.

As for your comment about parts being available as kits at gun shows is very wrong as well. It is very very very illegal for anyone of possess these kits. the ATF doesn't play around with people who sell and distribute any sort of kits. If you need a reference just look up the ATF constructive possession cases. Which basically state if you have the parts to make a full auto gun then you are considered in possession of a full auto gun and better have the proper credentials to possess a full auto gun.


the question was, "can it be done" and the answer, as simple as it is is "yes". I never said it was easy or hard. your use of the word "most" is misleading as well. most can't but some can and criminals are figuring out new ways to modify guns every day. making kits "illegal" doesn't stop people from selling them, mostly because they know there's a market for them. there will always be people who will want to do something just because someone else says that it can't be done.

on a related note: I'm not a hunter so maybe someone can explain to me, why would you need a semi-auto weapon for hunting?


I can't think of a single firearm that someone can convert to full auto in 30 minutes or even a couple hours. It would be much easier for someone to build a full auto from sheetmetal than to try and convert a semi into full auto. If they have the metal skills / tools to convert the semi, they sure as heck have the skills to build a machine gun from scratch.

As for your hunting comment, the simple answer quick follow up shots, esp when you are hunting smaller game like coyotes, prairie dogs etc. Also its imperative you have quick follow up shots when hunting dangerous game like alligators, buffalo and etc.

I think a lot of people miss the point though, guns aren't just for hunting, nor is the 2A limited to hunting. Everyone has the right to self defense and a semi auto weapon is the best tool available for that use.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:23 am

I was just going to reference your earlier post, ffemtreed. The hype over the notion of 'full auto conversions' is really confusing and frustrating. I see broad parallels to people freaking out over shark attacks when - globally - there are perhaps 100 attacks a year, and only maybe a dozen fatalities. (The last fatal shark attack in U.S. waters was nearly a year ago, and before that the last one was two years prior. So that's three fatalities in three years.) It's nothing more than panic.

shoeshine boy wrote:
count2infinity wrote:Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?


absolutely. you can buy kits over the internet and at gun shows that show you how to do it. because the "kits" are often just instructions they are protected by the First Amendment. often with a little bit of filing down and drilling you can turn a semi-automatic weapon to fully automatic in about 30 minutes. most gun manufacturers know how easily their products can be converted but won't do anything about it because they'd have to re-tool the factory. even if they were to do this it would probably take people just a couple of days to get around what ever "improvements" the manufacturer made and they'd be right back where they were.
was it Cris Rock who said, "make the bullets really expensive and then we won't have this problem"? I like that idea. :pop:

Besides, the notion of the danger presented by 'machine guns' is comically disproportionate to demonstrable threat. There are something like a quarter million legally owned and registered fully automatic weapons in this country, half of which are in civilian hands. I have been able to find evidence of three - 1, 2, 3 - murders committed by people with a legally owned and registered fully auto weapon over the last 80 years. Illegal fully auto weapons are used in roughly 1/2 of 1% all gun crimes, annually. The most recent year I could find data for was 2011, non-fatal gun crime accounted for 8% of all violent crime. Out of 414,562 reported incidents, that means there were 33,164 non-fatal violent crimes in which a gun was used. Prorating out, that means about 150 of those would have involved a fully automatic weapon in come capacity.

Consider also how horribly inaccurate fully auto shoulder-fired weapons are. There is a reason military rifles only have three modes: safe (no shoot), single (one pull, one round), burst (one pull, three rounds). By the time that third round is heading down the barrel, the muzzle of the rifle is likely off target; recoil is additive that way. So most fully auto weapons are either meant to be fired from a bipod or are mounted to a fixed position (like on a turret on a vehicle). Full auto in a rifle is only really useful as a way to turn a lot money (in ammo purchases) into noise in a short period of time on the range yelling "'Murica!" as you shred a watermelon.

Kaizer wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:All we need is a Nazis/Hitler reference, right?


If you let everyone own a gun, pretty soon they'll want to marry a goat.

:lol:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:33 am

tifosi77 wrote:I was just going to reference your earlier post, ffemtreed. The hype over the notion of 'full auto conversions' is really confusing and frustrating. I see broad parallels to people freaking out over shark attacks when - globally - there are perhaps 100 attacks a year, and only maybe a dozen fatalities. (The last fatal shark attack in U.S. waters was nearly a year ago, and before that the last one was two years prior. So that's three fatalities in three years.) It's nothing more than panic.

shoeshine boy wrote:
count2infinity wrote:Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?


absolutely. you can buy kits over the internet and at gun shows that show you how to do it. because the "kits" are often just instructions they are protected by the First Amendment. often with a little bit of filing down and drilling you can turn a semi-automatic weapon to fully automatic in about 30 minutes. most gun manufacturers know how easily their products can be converted but won't do anything about it because they'd have to re-tool the factory. even if they were to do this it would probably take people just a couple of days to get around what ever "improvements" the manufacturer made and they'd be right back where they were.
was it Cris Rock who said, "make the bullets really expensive and then we won't have this problem"? I like that idea. :pop:

Besides, the notion of the danger presented by 'machine guns' is comically disproportionate to demonstrable threat. There are something like a quarter million legally owned and registered fully automatic weapons in this country, half of which are in civilian hands. I have been able to find evidence of three - 1, 2, 3 - murders committed by people with a legally owned and registered fully auto weapon over the last 80 years. Illegal fully auto weapons are used in roughly 1/2 of 1% all gun crimes, annually. The most recent year I could find data for was 2011, non-fatal gun crime accounted for 8% of all violent crime. Out of 414,562 reported incidents, that means there were 33,164 non-fatal violent crimes in which a gun was used. Prorating out, that means about 150 of those would have involved a fully automatic weapon in come capacity.

Consider also how horribly inaccurate fully auto shoulder-fired weapons are. There is a reason military rifles only have three modes: safe (no shoot), single (one pull, one round), burst (one pull, three rounds). By the time that third round is heading down the barrel, the muzzle of the rifle is likely off target; recoil is additive that way. So most fully auto weapons are either meant to be fired from a bipod or are mounted to a fixed position (like on a turret on a vehicle). Full auto in a rifle is only really useful as a way to turn a lot money (in ammo purchases) into noise in a short period of time on the range yelling "'Murica!" as you shred a watermelon.

Kaizer wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:All we need is a Nazis/Hitler reference, right?


If you let everyone own a gun, pretty soon they'll want to marry a goat.

:lol:


Good post!

To take it a step further and look at crime statistics for what the media and labeled as "assualt" weapons and you'll see a similar disparity on the crimes committed with these weapons as opposed to other weapons. "assualt" rifles are used very seldom in crimes compared to hand guns and shotguns. Its clear the problem isn't "assualt" rifles. BUT the media can make them seem like a big problem and sensationalize the story due to people general misunderstanding of what an actual AR-15 is. Just the fact they call it a high power rifle shows their ignorance. The .223 round that the vast majority of AR-15's shoot is about the weakest centerfire ammunition you can get. Common deer hunting ammo is much more powerful, yet the general public who doesn't have any knowledge of firearms has no idea the differences between calibers and what gun shoots what calibers.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:40 am

ffemtreed wrote:
I think a lot of people miss the point though, guns aren't just for hunting, nor is the 2A limited to hunting. Everyone has the right to self defense and a semi auto weapon is the best tool available for that use.


"best tool" is debatable. if you are properly trained to use your firearm it shouldn't take multiple rounds to defend yourself against a single perpetrator. "most efficient" might be a better phrase. I have never felt the need to own a gun (I do have possession of my father's WWII sidearm but since it hasn't been cleaned or serviced in 70 years I wouldn't even think of trying to use it) so maybe it's something I just don't understand.
I see no need outside the military/police for an AK-47 but to the gun lobby it's a slippery slope. I get where they're coming from but I often wonder how they'd feel about it if someone came into one of their rallies and went bat-sh*t crazy with an AK.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:45 am

Yeah... that wouldn't end well for the person wuth the ak47. Have you ever been to a gun show or rally?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:48 am

shoeshine boy wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:
I think a lot of people miss the point though, guns aren't just for hunting, nor is the 2A limited to hunting. Everyone has the right to self defense and a semi auto weapon is the best tool available for that use.


"best tool" is debatable. if you are properly trained to use your firearm it shouldn't take multiple rounds to defend yourself against a single perpetrator. "most efficient" might be a better phrase. I have never felt the need to own a gun (I do have possession of my father's WWII sidearm but since it hasn't been cleaned or serviced in 70 years I wouldn't even think of trying to use it) so maybe it's something I just don't understand.
I see no need outside the military/police for an AK-47 but to the gun lobby it's a slippery slope. I get where they're coming from but I often wonder how they'd feel about it if someone came into one of their rallies and went bat-sh*t crazy with an AK.


shooting someone in the back while theyre trying to pick up your TV might be easy, but if the intruder knows youre there and wants to live, they arent going to stand still. i would want as many chances to get a hit as possible, especially if they have their own weapon.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby viva la ben on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:48 am

Grunthy wrote:Yeah... that wouldn't end well for the person wuth the ak47. Have you ever been to a gun show or rally?


Exactly, ask yourself why so many mass shootings take place in "gun free zones"
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:51 am

viva la ben wrote:
Grunthy wrote:Yeah... that wouldn't end well for the person wuth the ak47. Have you ever been to a gun show or rally?


Exactly, ask yourself why so many mass shootings take place in "gun free zones"


Don't go to parties with metal detectors.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:54 am

shoeshine boy wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:
I think a lot of people miss the point though, guns aren't just for hunting, nor is the 2A limited to hunting. Everyone has the right to self defense and a semi auto weapon is the best tool available for that use.


"best tool" is debatable. if you are properly trained to use your firearm it shouldn't take multiple rounds to defend yourself against a single perpetrator. "most efficient" might be a better phrase. I have never felt the need to own a gun (I do have possession of my father's WWII sidearm but since it hasn't been cleaned or serviced in 70 years I wouldn't even think of trying to use it) so maybe it's something I just don't understand.
I see no need outside the military/police for an AK-47 but to the gun lobby it's a slippery slope. I get where they're coming from but I often wonder how they'd feel about it if someone came into one of their rallies and went bat-sh*t crazy with an AK.


So what is the difference between and AK47 and an AR15 ??? why is one (in your opinion) more dangerous or deadly ?

Also who said that the threat to your life is a single perp??? Lots of home invasions have 3 or more suspects in them. What about after natural disasters when there is practically no one to help you defend yourself and you have to fight to keep your food and shelter from being looted so you can stay alive? What about the deterrence to other country's in time of war to not invade American soil because of how heavily armed the general population is. I believe that came right from a high ranking Jap general during WW2.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:57 am

What about when the economy collapses and you are living in a third world country and the only thing protecting you is your guns?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:59 am

What about when the apocalyptic wasteland like in the Road Warrior sets in, and it's the only thing keeping you from being strapped to the lead marauder's rig?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:02 am

At that point, good thing you stockpiled that arsenal. Hopefully you also have a tank of gasoline as well.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:03 am

Exactly. How are you gonna come in here and tell me I can't have an AR when it's just as important as fuel or canned food when battling mutant cannibals?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:18 am

Idoit40fans wrote:At that point, good thing you stockpiled that arsenal. Hopefully you also have a tank of gasoline as well.


An actual tank would be better.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:19 am

I think a military humvee would be ideal actually.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:21 am

Helicopter with a giant magnet on the bottom.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby since1970 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:22 am

Good post!

To take it a step further and look at crime statistics for what the media and labeled as "assualt" weapons and you'll see a similar disparity on the crimes committed with these weapons as opposed to other weapons. "assualt" rifles are used very seldom in crimes compared to hand guns and shotguns. Its clear the problem isn't "assualt" rifles. BUT the media can make them seem like a big problem and sensationalize the story due to people general misunderstanding of what an actual AR-15 is. Just the fact they call it a high power rifle shows their ignorance. The .223 round that the vast majority of AR-15's shoot is about the weakest centerfire ammunition you can get. Common deer hunting ammo is much more powerful, yet the general public who doesn't have any knowledge of firearms has no idea the differences between calibers and what gun shoots what calibers.[/quote]


.....I get what you're saying, but can a .223 round inflict damage, mortal or otherwise to a human being? I'm not sure getting into the descriptive but inaccurate language the media uses means much to the general public. For myself, being part of the general public I don't really make the distinction between handgun, assault or high powered rifle. I don't care if you own a handgun, rifle, bazooka, mortar, or whatever, because I'm thinking you're responsible with that weapon. Guns are going to exist, and irresponsible psycopathic/sociopathic people are going to exist, and if they're bent on killing, they'll find a method to do it, be it guns, explosives, poison darts, spear, or a toaster in the bathtub, even though my personal views on owning guns is, why? I realize it's not the instrument that kills, but the person handling it, would be nice if it were more difficult to access a weapon. Elimination seems like an overreaction, and a little simplistic. Guns aren't going anywhere, and I don't think we can eliminate the sick twisted bast*** who wants kill prior to the event, so I have a feeling in my lifetime this discussion will still be going on.




..high ranking Jap general????? :scared: :face:
Last edited by since1970 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:23 am

if folks are stock-piling semi-auto weapons for the "invasion of America" by someone (or something) then it's clear that the movie and tv production companies have succeeded in making you paranoid.
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:43 pm

shoeshine boy wrote:"best tool" is debatable. if you are properly trained to use your firearm it shouldn't take multiple rounds to defend yourself against a single perpetrator. "most efficient" might be a better phrase.

In the context of life threatening circumstances, "best tool" and "most efficient" are interchangeable.

But the notion of proper training automatically equaling one-shot stops is a huge misnomer. There are so many variables that go into each particular incident: Was it light out? What was the range? Has the person wielding the gun received any training? Had there been a struggle first? What were the relative angles each person was standing to one and other? Is one or other under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol? Geez, even the air temperature and humidity can affect bullet performance and influence stopping power.

Generally speaking, handguns range from the low 60% range for one-shot stops up into the low 90% range. But as with anything, there are tradeoffs. A .45 ACP moves relatively slowly, but because the bullet is so large (about twice the weight of an average 9 mm) it still manages to pack quite the punch and not present much of a risk of so-called 'collateral' damage to anyone other than the target. A medium round like a .357 magnum will have a higher single-shot success rate.... but the bullet is moving so fast that there is a real consideration of the round passing completely through the target and ending up in your neighbor's living room.

What it boils down to is a few simple things: Have you chosen a weapon suitable to the task at hand and that you are comfortable handling? Have you been properly trained on the care and feeding of said weapon? Have you taken steps to make sure you yourself are properly trained in employing the weapon in a high-stress situation? Do you practice with the weapon on a regular basis? All of those things improve your chances of limiting the number of rounds you have to send at the baddies.

But there are always going to be situations where nothing beats additional firepower. The points were raised (in some cases jokingly) about natural disasters and the breakdown of social order. It may sound like laughable paranoia to factor those things in to the way you plan your life, but they are very real considerations for a large number of people. I live three miles south of the epicenter of the 1994 Northridge earthquake, and used to live just a couple blocks from the epicenter of the Koreatown riots following the Rodney King verdict. Thankfully both occurred before I moved here... but I don't know a single person who was here for Northridge who doesn't mark time by that event: Pre-Northridge and Post-Northridge.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:07 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/justice/t ... ?hpt=hp_t2

TM's mom seems to be wising up a little. I can't say that I disagree with her completely but I do still believe even without the SYG law the prosecutors wouldn't have been able to prove murder. manslaughter MAYBE......TM's missing 4 minutes is pardon the expression, the smoking gun.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:46 pm

So bringing this a bit more back on topic, is anyone else seeing the online rumors that the alleged car accident from which GZ rescued two people might have been staged? I've seen a couple stories reference phone records of the driver of the car showing he was in contact with GZ prior to the incident, but I can't imagine why they're phone records would be available to anyone now. (This is what's making me question the veracity of the stories, actually)
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:56 pm

tifosi77 wrote:So bringing this a bit more back on topic, is anyone else seeing the online rumors that the alleged car accident from which GZ rescued two people might have been staged? I've seen a couple stories reference phone records of the driver of the car showing he was in contact with GZ prior to the incident, but I can't imagine why they're phone records would be available to anyone now. (This is what's making me question the veracity of the stories, actually)



You actually think they put the lives of two children in danger so Zimmerman would look better?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:00 pm

Grunthy wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:So bringing this a bit more back on topic, is anyone else seeing the online rumors that the alleged car accident from which GZ rescued two people might have been staged? I've seen a couple stories reference phone records of the driver of the car showing he was in contact with GZ prior to the incident, but I can't imagine why they're phone records would be available to anyone now. (This is what's making me question the veracity of the stories, actually)



You actually think they put the lives of two children in danger so Zimmerman would look better?


they who? i'm sure someone would.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:06 pm

Kaizer wrote:
Grunthy wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:So bringing this a bit more back on topic, is anyone else seeing the online rumors that the alleged car accident from which GZ rescued two people might have been staged? I've seen a couple stories reference phone records of the driver of the car showing he was in contact with GZ prior to the incident, but I can't imagine why they're phone records would be available to anyone now. (This is what's making me question the veracity of the stories, actually)



You actually think they put the lives of two children in danger so Zimmerman would look better?


they who? i'm sure someone would.

:face:
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