Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:37 am

rasbatch wrote:Was there any evidence presented that TM is the one that escalated this from a verbal to a physical confrontation?
I don't mean GZ statements or injuries or TM was on top. The one witness that supposedly saw the whole thing to
my knowledge never testified "I saw TM punch GZ".


from what I've read/watched, no one has testified or witnessed what happened between the end of GZ's 911 non-emergency phone call and TM being on top of GZ. So to answer your original question, no. there was and is no evidence.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:38 am

ffemtreed wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:I don't understand why its wrong to keep a close eye on someone who doesn't look like they belong in your neighborhood and check out what they are up to.


Wut?



Its called being a productive part of your community. Something that is lacking more and more everyday.


In your neighborhood, who doesn't belong?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby rasbatch on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:40 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:I don't understand why its wrong to keep a close eye on someone who doesn't look like they belong in your neighborhood and check out what they are up to.


Wut?



Its called being a productive part of your community. Something that is lacking more and more everyday.


In your neighborhood, who doesn't belong?

Punks you know the "#$#^*&*'s" that always get away.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:42 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:I don't understand why its wrong to keep a close eye on someone who doesn't look like they belong in your neighborhood and check out what they are up to.


Wut?



Its called being a productive part of your community. Something that is lacking more and more everyday.


In your neighborhood, who doesn't belong?



The guy walking down the street late at night looking into every car and trying every door handle would be a good example.

Or maybe the person trying to get in the back door of my neighbors house while I know they are on vacation.

I see where you are going though, trying to make everything into a race or profiling issue.

Sorry I am out of this convo now. Gotta get back to work.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:43 am

:pop:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:50 am

Maybe it was semantics but "The guy walking down the street late at night looking into every car and trying every door handle" isn't just someone who doesn't belong. They are someone performing suspicious and possibly illegal (I dont know if trying handles on a vehicle that isn't yours is legal or not) activity.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:12 am

DropEmJayBird wrote:He then spends TWO MINUTES... TWO WHOLE MINUTES on the phone with the operator, talking about where he would meet the officer, He hangs up at 7:15.

The call log starts at 7:09:34 and is ended at 7:13:40. GZ gets out of his car at ~7:11:44.

I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but exactness is important in discussions like this; the cops arrived literally seconds after the shooting.

And there is still an 80 or 90 second gap between when GZ end the 911 call and when neighbors call to report the fight. So where you question what the victim was doing for a period of time, I'm more interested in what the perpetrator was doing. In my eyes, every single second GZ spent out of his car following TM was a second that made his ability to claim self defense less credible. Because I don't have any problem at all believing that those seconds built up the notion (from TMs perspective) that he was being pursued with ill intent. And if I think someone is following me with ill intent, the last thing I want to do is show them where I live.

MWB wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
count2infinity wrote:May the record show that there is no law against seeing something suspicious and following to see what's going on. Keep in mind here, I am not arguing that Zimmerman should not be punished for his moronic actions, I'm just saying that the prosecution has not done enough to get a guilty verdict, IMO.


Yeah, pretty much.

That's a silly notion that simply leaving his car made it open season for violence without him being able to defend himself. If that were the case, we'd be living in a horrific society.


I don't think anyone is saying that him leaving the car made it open season for violence. The point is, he took a proactive decision in leaving his car instead of a passive decision of staying in his car. Making that proactive choice was the first step that led to the other things that happened. Up to the point that GZ left the car, it does not seem that TM made any proactive choice to engage GZ. That doesn't mean that GZ was looking for a fight or that he went with the intent to harm TM, it just means that he made a choice that led to the altercation; a choice that he could have avoided quite easily.

Yeah, no one is saying that it was 'open season for violence'. Just that the ability to claim self defense was seriously diminished.

count2infinity wrote:But that isn't illegal MWB, it doesn't make him guilty of murder.

Again, no one is saying it's illegal or indicative of guilt. But it changes the analysis of the fact pattern, considerably.

Kraftster wrote:From what source should new laws be derived?

Burning, talking shrubbery.

ffemtreed wrote:With the injuries that Zimmerman had, I don't doubt for a second he was in fear for his life when he fired that single shot.

Do I doubt he was getting beat up? Not at all. But his 'injuries' were mended with two Band-aids, and the investigating police detective didn't find GZ's story credible at all, refuting the claim of self defense, and recommended charging him with Manslaughter.

I've had worse 'injuries' playing hockey.

ffemtreed wrote:The guy walking down the street late at night looking into every car and trying every door handle would be a good example.

Are you saying this in relation to TM? Or just a general example? Because in the case at hand it was neither late at night, nor was TM peering into parked cars and trying the door handles.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, as a general rule. Just making the distinct point about this particular case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby TheHammer24 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:22 am

I just read the jury instructions. What technical garbage. It's near-impossible to figure out what they are asking.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:20 pm

the rebuttal closing was ridiculous. the DA can call TM a "child" all he wants but TM was 6' tall, much taller than GZ. no one sees him as a child. he would've driven the point home better by calling him a "kid". was TM scared? they probably both were but it has no bearing, imo on this case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby America on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:28 pm

I hope GZ is innocent of all charges. The racism in this case is ridiculous.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:28 pm

It looks like the judge did instruct the jury on the lesser included charge of Manslaughter 2, but not with the added element of Aggravated Assault.

"In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death."
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:33 pm

tifosi77 wrote:I've had worse 'injuries' playing hockey.


Exactly. Anyone whose head is repeatedly smashed on concrete is going to have far worse injuries than what he had.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:34 pm

America wrote:I hope GZ is innocent of all charges. The racism in this case is ridiculous.



Shaf wrote:Wow, just wow.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:30 pm

the only racism IN the case is the prosecutors talking about GZ profiling TM, and TM calling GZ a cracker. the stuff you see on TV and internet has no bearing.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby America on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:32 pm

The racism surrounding the case is a problem too. Sometimes people forget it goes both ways.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby rasbatch on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:35 pm

That isn't even racism, that's prejudice, and ignorance. Racism is I'm a boss and I don't hire this color of person.
Racism, like sexism or any other ism requires that one person has the power and uses that power to advance their "ism"
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:43 pm

America wrote:The racism surrounding the case is a problem too. Sometimes people forget it goes both ways.


people outside the courtroom getting butthurt about the media attention has nothing to do with the jury's verdict, and John Guy just told the jury that the case isnt about race anyway. it isnt part of their case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:45 pm

tifosi77 wrote:It looks like the judge did instruct the jury on the lesser included charge of Manslaughter 2, but not with the added element of Aggravated Assault.

"In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death."


But if this is self defense than manslaughter is out too. Did the state show beyond reasonable doubt that this wasn't a case of self defense?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:46 pm

DelPen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:It looks like the judge did instruct the jury on the lesser included charge of Manslaughter 2, but not with the added element of Aggravated Assault.

"In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death."


But if this is self defense than manslaughter is out too. Did the state show beyond reasonable doubt that this wasn't a case of self defense?


imo they haven't even come close.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby since1970 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:57 pm

..whether TM was/wasn't a thug, or GZ is or isn't pejudiced law enforcement wanna be, someone is dead for nothing, and this entire preceeding is a perfect storm of stupidity, ignorance, and irresponsibility.......
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:59 pm

Think that pretty much sums it up nicely.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:04 pm

If being punched in the face and having two small cuts on the back of your head now constitutes a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm or even death, than I'm not sure I'm going to be too willing to step out of my house any more.

I've never bought Zimmerman's account of events, but I don't think he committed murder. If I were on the jury, I'd have no problem voting to convict on manslaughter.

DelPen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:It looks like the judge did instruct the jury on the lesser included charge of Manslaughter 2, but not with the added element of Aggravated Assault.

"In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death."


But if this is self defense than manslaughter is out too. Did the state show beyond reasonable doubt that this wasn't a case of self defense?

It's not like you get to claim self defense and then the judge says, "Right, on your way." Self defense claims have no bearing in the determination of lesser included charges; manslaughter is almost automatically included as a lesser charge under Murder 2 prosecutions under FL law.

The only time the charges would have been wiped is if this was a stand-your-ground defense. They would have had a pre-trial hearing where Zimmerman would have made his case to the judge, and if the judge agreed with him the charges would have been immediately dismissed. But that would have exposed him to potential cross examination, so Zimmerman waived his rights in this regard and the defense went with a conventional self defense claim.

As a lesser included charge, if the state shows 1) that Trayvon Martin is dead and 2) GZ intentionally committed the act that made him dead and that act was not excusable or a justifiable use of deadly force, then it's manslaughter.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:09 pm

tifosi77 wrote:If being punched in the face and having two small cuts on the back of your head now constitutes a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm or even death, than I'm not sure I'm going to be too willing to step out of my house any more.


what would constitute a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm? 3 punches? 4 punches? Do you have to wait until you're almost unconscious before you can claim self defense? Do you have to be bleeding? If so, how much?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:26 pm

since1970 wrote:..whether TM was/wasn't a thug, or GZ is or isn't pejudiced law enforcement wanna be, someone is dead for nothing, and this entire preceeding is a perfect storm of stupidity, ignorance, and irresponsibility.......


Bingo.

count2infinity wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:If being punched in the face and having two small cuts on the back of your head now constitutes a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm or even death, than I'm not sure I'm going to be too willing to step out of my house any more.


what would constitute a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm? 3 punches? 4 punches? Do you have to wait until you're almost unconscious before you can claim self defense? Do you have to be bleeding? If so, how much?


The fact that Zimmerman is the one who engaged with Martin in the first place, AND was carrying a gun, leads me to believe he felt threatened long before the first punch was thrown.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DudeMan2766 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:47 pm

And this is the problem we're gonna have no matter what the verdict Thanks mostly to the media. (spoilered for some language. And yes I know its only 3 people, but its not hard to think this isnt a prevelant mindset)

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