Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:52 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:And this is the problem we're gonna have no matter what the verdict Thanks mostly to the media. (spoilered for some language. And yes I know its only 3 people, but its not hard to think this isnt a prevelant mindset)



That's disgusting, but, unfortunately, it is prevalent on both sides of the coin.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:55 pm

topshelf wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:And this is the problem we're gonna have no matter what the verdict Thanks mostly to the media. (spoilered for some language. And yes I know its only 3 people, but its not hard to think this isnt a prevelant mindset)



That's disgusting, but, unfortunately, it is prevalent on both sides of the coin.


what doe you mean by both sides of the coin?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:59 pm

I said it before, but if there is mass rioting after the verdict is announced, it is a bunch of people looking for an excuse to go crazy and destroy property, steal things, and commit acts of violence. It has NOTHING to do with Trayvon's status as a black martyr.

Look at the people that loot during crises, run through the streets of cities randomly assaulting people for no reason (Philly and elsewhere), etc. If there is rioting, it will be the same people that are more apt to break laws anyway.

Peaceful protests, misguided as they may be, are a different story. I hope those are more common.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby viva la ben on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:02 pm

The death threats are all over twitter.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:04 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:I said it before, but if there is mass rioting after the verdict is announced, it is a bunch of people looking for an excuse to go crazy and destroy property, steal things, and commit acts of violence. It has NOTHING to do with Trayvon's status as a black martyr.

Look at the people that loot during crises, run through the streets of cities randomly assaulting people for no reason (Philly and elsewhere), etc. If there is rioting, it will be the same people that are more apt to break laws anyway.

Peaceful protests, misguided as they may be, are a different story. I hope those are more common.


sounds like that movie "The Purge" that just came out a little while ago.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:34 pm

count2infinity wrote:
topshelf wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:And this is the problem we're gonna have no matter what the verdict Thanks mostly to the media. (spoilered for some language. And yes I know its only 3 people, but its not hard to think this isnt a prevelant mindset)



That's disgusting, but, unfortunately, it is prevalent on both sides of the coin.


what doe you mean by both sides of the coin?


I'm sorry, I should have elaborated a little bit more, but I was doing multiple things.

What I find disgusting about that screenshot is the ignorance that inevitably and ultimately harbors blatant racism and/or racial undertones. By both sides of the coin, I meant that there are these type of ignorant people in every race, belief system, culture, etc., and they should never be assumed to represent anything more than a very small majority of their social group. I'd say this would be the majority of the thought process:

@TangieLarkin In the midst of this trial, Let us not forget - Little Boys around the world are watching how we react to this verdict #KeepCalmForTrayvon

The sad thing is, social media today gives everyone a voice, and it seems like the ignorant ones speak the loudest.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:47 pm

count2infinity wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:If being punched in the face and having two small cuts on the back of your head now constitutes a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm or even death, than I'm not sure I'm going to be too willing to step out of my house any more.


what would constitute a reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm? 3 punches? 4 punches? Do you have to wait until you're almost unconscious before you can claim self defense? Do you have to be bleeding? If so, how much?

You obviously have to take each case on its merits and judge the facts. And based on his own statements I can't reasonably say that if I were in GZs shoes I would have feared for my life.

And I still maintain that the only thing that makes sense, in terms of how the confrontation played out, is that GZ had drawn or was moving to draw before the first punch was thrown. But, again, that's just speculating on my part.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:22 pm

columbia wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:There was no need for Zimmerman to find and confront Martin at all, at least other than to start a fight from what I can see.


fyp?

Maybe, maybe not.

Isn't maybe, maybe not, reasonable doubt ?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Do I have any doubt that he is responsible for another person's death? Not really.

Do the circumstances meet the standard of manslaughter? I don't know.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:49 pm

The way I see it is Zimmerman confronted and instigated the conflict with Martin on the assumption that Martin was up to no good. His intuition was wrong, and it resulted in the death of Martin.

There's something unjust about that.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:41 pm

topshelf wrote:The way I see it is Zimmerman confronted and instigated the conflict with Martin on the assumption that Martin was up to no good. His intuition was wrong, and it resulted in the death of Martin.

There's something unjust about that.

Only problem is the prosecution didn't prove that is what happened and that what Zimmerman said couldn't have happened.

I'm pretty sure everyone here know OJ chopped his wife's head off but the state never proved it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:05 pm

DelPen wrote:
topshelf wrote:The way I see it is Zimmerman confronted and instigated the conflict with Martin on the assumption that Martin was up to no good. His intuition was wrong, and it resulted in the death of Martin.

There's something unjust about that.

Only problem is the prosecution didn't prove that is what happened and that what Zimmerman said couldn't have happened.

I'm pretty sure everyone here know OJ chopped his wife's head off but the state never proved it.


And that's so sad.

I live about 40 minutes from Sanford, so I've had this think at every angle from day one. Believe me, not too much goes on in Central Florida, so between this case and Casey Anthony, the local media has made a living. I've tried to stay as neutral and unbiased with this whole case, but so much of the Zimmerman side seems so shady and unjust.

In my opinion, this case exposes major flaws in the "Stand Your Ground" law. The premise of the law was to protect citizens who were literally standing their ground and protecting themselves from being invaded/attacked. One of the hallmark cases that begged for a law like this was the lady who shot the guy who was climbing in her window and she was tried for murder (forgive me for being so vague, I'm tired, lol). What the law does not promote and should not allow is for an individual to instigate a situation until he or she feels threatened, and then kill someone.

It doesn't matter how many times Trayvon Martin hit Zimmerman, or what racial slur he may or may not have called him, all that matters is Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation, and then killed him for it.

I guess we'll see tomorrow if the state's attorneys did their job, if not, it will be Casey Anthony 2.0
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:49 am

Once more...... stand your ground isn't being invoked here. The defense has not made that claim. It's a non-issue.

DelPen wrote:I'm pretty sure everyone here know OJ chopped his wife's head off but the state never proved it.

So to follow through with that to make the analogy relevant..... are you saying you believe GZ acted improperly, if not illegally, but the state simply hasn't proven that?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:50 am

Comparing this case to Casey Anthony? Yikes
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:58 am

Let's say for instance that the way the altercation went down was one of the following:

1. GZ says, "Hey, what are you doing?" TM says, "Mind your own business cracker." and attacks him. GZ shoots him. Would that be self defense?
2. GZ loses TM. As someone posted earlier in the thread TM had plenty of time to get to his father's house (I don't know how accurate his post is, but let's just say it is accurate). GZ is walking on the sidewalk looking around for hiim and TM comes out of some dark walkway somewhere and jumps GZ. GZ shoots him. Would that be self defense?

I think there are way too many people here saying GZ following TM = GZ is the aggressor. That very well may not have been the case. It could be the case, but again we'll never know. GZ is the only one who does, and the state has not done enough to prove that GZ was the aggressor, just that he followed TM, which as was discussed earlier is not illegal and does not immediately nullify self defense.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:09 am

Neither of the scenarios you mention have enough detail to make a determination one way or the other.

And the state doesn't have to prove that GZ was an aggressor, just that his response of pulling a gun and shooting someone who was punching him was unjustified. The discussion of whether or not GZ was an 'aggressor' is kind of an academic discussion of TMs mindset at the time of the physical confrontation between the two.

And as I stated yesterday, I don't put too much stock in the notion that TM had several minutes to get home and yet chose to stay out, therefore - problem. If I suspected - or knew - that I was being followed by someone I didn't know, pretty much the last thing I'd want to do is show them where I live.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:47 am

count2infinity wrote:Let's say for instance that the way the altercation went down was one of the following:

1. GZ says, "Hey, what are you doing?" TM says, "Mind your own business cracker." and attacks him. GZ shoots him. Would that be self defense?


Yes.

count2infinity wrote:I think there are way too many people here saying GZ following TM = GZ is the aggressor.


Following him doesn't make him so much the "aggressor" as much as the instigator. He followed TM even after authorities told him to stand down. Had he acted as the was told, there would be no fight and TM would still be alive.

tifosi77 wrote:If I suspected - or knew - that I was being followed by someone I didn't know, pretty much the last thing I'd want to do is show them where I live.


Absolutely. I'd imagine it'd be worse if you were a 17 year old kid being followed by someone nearly 60 lbs bigger than you.

shafnutz05 wrote:Comparing this case to Casey Anthony? Yikes


The comparison was in regards to the states attorneys dropping the ball. Reread.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:59 pm

topshelf wrote:
DelPen wrote:
topshelf wrote:... all that matters is Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation, and then killed him for it.

I don't get this... What evidence is there that "Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation"?

By what measure was Martin entitled to physically accost Zimmerman?

Following someone and asking them what they're doing IS NOT provocation. Certainly doesn't justify TM's actions.

The only way that makes sense is if Zimmerman threw the first punch. Seeing as GZ was armed, I seriously doubt that.

The minute you throw a punch at someone, I think there's justification for retaliation.

There's no way of knowing whether TM ways going to be satisfied with just smashing GZ's head against the pavement, or if he had list his tort to the point where he wouldn't have stopped until GZ was fatally injured.

If you're on top of me straddling me, and bashing my head into the ground, I think that's justification for deadly force.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:11 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
topshelf wrote:
DelPen wrote:
topshelf wrote:... all that matters is Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation, and then killed him for it.

I don't get this... What evidence is there that "Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation"?

By what measure was Martin entitled to physically accost Zimmerman?

Following someone and asking them what they're doing IS NOT provocation. Certainly doesn't justify TM's actions.

The only way that makes sense is if Zimmerman threw the first punch. Seeing as GZ was armed, I seriously doubt that.

The minute you throw a punch at someone, I think there's justification for retaliation.

There's no way of knowing whether TM ways going to be satisfied with just smashing GZ's head against the pavement, or if he had list his tort to the point where he wouldn't have stopped until GZ was fatally injured.

If you're on top of me straddling me, and bashing my head into the ground, I think that's justification for deadly force.


and thats why it should be manslaughter and not murder 2, because without GZ's part, none of that would have happened to begin with. i wouldnt have any problem with what he did, until the cops told him to stay away.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:32 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
topshelf wrote:
DelPen wrote:
topshelf wrote:... all that matters is Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation, and then killed him for it.

I don't get this... What evidence is there that "Zimmerman provoked an innocent Martin to the point of retaliation"?

By what measure was Martin entitled to physically accost Zimmerman?

Following someone and asking them what they're doing IS NOT provocation. Certainly doesn't justify TM's actions.

The only way that makes sense is if Zimmerman threw the first punch. Seeing as GZ was armed, I seriously doubt that.

The minute you throw a punch at someone, I think there's justification for retaliation.

There's no way of knowing whether TM ways going to be satisfied with just smashing GZ's head against the pavement, or if he had list his tort to the point where he wouldn't have stopped until GZ was fatally injured.

If you're on top of me straddling me, and bashing my head into the ground, I think that's justification for deadly force.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not stating that TM couldn't have acted out of line after Zimmerman approached him.

My point is that George Zimmerman targeted Trayvon Martin (I'm giving GZ the benefit of the doubt and using the word "target" to mean he thought TM looked mischievous, regardless of his race), began following him and called the cops. The cops told GZ to "stand down" and stop following, to which Zimmerman replied "‘F****** punks. Those a*******, they always get away [...]" and kept his pursuit. At this point, Zimmerman is out of line and is blatantly refusing to do what he was told by those who are supposed to handle these situations. In addition to that, Zimmerman had already made up his mind that Martin was one of those "f****** punks", and he planned on doing something about it (which we all know was not the case).

It is from this point, until the moment that Trayvon dies, that things are cloudy, but we already know that there should have never been a "this point". Zimmerman was out of line and acting on his intuition that was way, way off. Also, up until "this point", Martin was merely a target of Zimmerman and was acting totally within the limits of the law.

It is basically a form of entrapment. If Zimmerman is making his "F****** punks" statements and following Trayvon, one would assume that, eventually, Trayvon is going to have enough and confront Zimmerman. Does that make Trayvon's actions right? Of course not, but he never should have been pushed to that point.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby since1970 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:27 pm

..there's way too much supposin' and surmisin' in this thread. He coulda done this, but he probably did this and that's why this happened, so if he woulda just left we wouldn't be here right now, this goes for both TM and GZ, but nobody left and someone is dead, and without being on the jury or in the courtroom everyday we're not qualified to say anything, just give useless opinions, which need to be qualified as such, as in, it's my opinion they're both at fault. I have no proof, but I feel they both added fuel to the fire, and were combative with each other when confronted. The confrontation got out of hand, escalated, and adrenalin and fear combined with preconceptions and a handgun made the outcome tragic, but not surprising. Again, I have zero proof of anything I just said other than seeing things like this first hand, and yes, it's a stupid and ridiculous event.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Beech_is_God on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:00 pm

Verdict of not guilty just delivered.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:02 pm

State never should have brought this to trial
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:07 pm

DelPen wrote:State never should have brought this to trial


I agree but I think we all know why they did. there was TONS of reasonable doubt all over this case. I was a person who knew very little about this case before I started watching the trial and I had doubts about murder before the prosecution even rested.
I just hope the prosecuting attorney doesn't get canned over this. it's not his fault he was given a can't-win case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:23 pm

Image
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