Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby the riddler on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:46 am

The actions of GZ don't seem to be that of someone acting out of hatred of TM's race but more along the lines of someone who is a bit paranoid and not equipped with the knowledge to handle a situation like he was in. I'm not so sure he was not the aggressor to some extent and that GZ's story was 100% true. There just wasn't enough evidence to prove otherwise.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:46 am

topshelf wrote:
The irony is your spoiler is exactly how the situation should be handled: by the cops, not some hothead with a gun.


You act like the two are mutually exclusive. They're not.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/off-duty ... g-19365060
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:48 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
topshelf wrote:
shoeshine boy wrote:I live in a townhouse neighborhood too and believe me, when people are wandering around between and behind houses I get suspicious too.


I think we all would, but would you be suspicious or "grab you gun and follow the guy" suspicious?


Hey, as long as he's not coming to my house, he can rob every other place in the neighborhood. I'll even point out which houses have a weeks worth of newspapers stacked at the front door, have no alarm systems, are against owning firearms, or are elderly and infirm.

I'm not my brothers keeper and if I get involved maybe I end up getting arrested and dragged onto the national stage.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Spoiler:
NOT

Come near my neighborhood and act like a suspicious gangsta wanna-be and I guarantee you'll find trouble.

Not from me, but from the half dozen or so NYC cops who live in a 2x2 Block radius.


That's quite a jump you made there based on the quote above you. There's an area between doing nothing and "grabbing a gun and following."

Also, are you saying that TM was acting like a "suspicious gangsta wanna-be" or just generalizing?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:52 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
topshelf wrote:
The irony is your spoiler is exactly how the situation should be handled: by the cops, not some hothead with a gun.


You act like the two are mutually exclusive. They're not.


That statement doesn't help your case. Of course there can be hotheaded cops, but that doesn't mean anything to the case.

If it is a police officer following Martin (whether he/she is a hothead or not), as opposed to Zimmerman, then he is doing his job. It was neither Zimmerman's job or place to follow Martin. He was even told to stand down. It Zimmerman had a "job" that night, it was to alert the authorities and back off. Had he done that, we wouldn't know either one of their names right now. It takes a special person to grab their gun and follow someone based upon their skewed thoughts... no sane person would want a guy like Zimmerman in their neighborhood.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby since1970 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:52 am

...does anyone know if he was appointed by the community as the neighborhood watch, and why would TM not know there was a neighborhood watch? Why wouldn't his father tell him, hey, we have a neighborhood watch, there's been a rash of burglaries, so if anyone asks you what you're doing, just tell them you're visiting me. I know that's what I would do with anyone visiting me. Plus, who's to say the Martins preconceptions didn't affect his behavior that night. I know people like to say, it's no one's business what he was doing. I know my first reaction would be to just tell the guy when he asked, I'm going back to my Dad's house, it's not like it would have bothered me to tell him, especially if this was the kind of Florida subdivision I'm used to where's it's basically a gated community. I woulda figured it's just a guy looking out for his neighbor's like people did when I grew up.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:55 am

If my neighborhood is being burglarized.,has multiple B&E's in a short period of time. I'm going to protect myself and my family.

You can ignore a guy who covers his face and darts in and out of the shadows if you wish, but to act like that, yes, I'd call that suspicious behavior.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:55 am

since1970 wrote:...does anyone know if he was appointed by the community as the neighborhood watch, and why would TM not know there was a neighborhood watch? Why wouldn't his father tell him, hey, we have a neighborhood watch, there's been a rash of burglaries, so if anyone asks you what you're doing, just tell them you're visiting me. I know that's what I would do with anyone visiting me. Plus, who's to say the Martins preconceptions didn't affect his behavior that night. I know people like to say, it's no one's business what he was doing. I know my first reaction would be to just tell the guy when he asked, I'm going back to my Dad's house, it's not like it would have bothered me to tell him, especially if this was the kind of Florida subdivision I'm used to where's it's basically a gated community. I woulda figured it's just a guy looking out for his neighbor's like people did when I grew up.


Honestly, no one knows whether any of this did or did not happen. Martin could have told Zimmerman he was going to his dad's house, Zimmerman could have introduced himself as a neighborhood watch guy... there are a million different "what ifs" that could have taken place but we'll never know. I will say, though, that both Martin and his father never conceived that Trayvon would be followed by a dude with a gun.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:57 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:If my neighborhood is being burglarized.,has multiple B&E's in a short period of time. I'm going to protect myself and my family.

You can ignore a guy who covers his face and darts in and out of the shadows if you wish, but to act like that, yes, I'd call that suspicious behavior.


No one is saying you have to ignore the guy, what we're saying is you call the cops and let them handle the person and then you do what you can to protect your family/property.

Following someone with a gun oversteps your boundaries. Period. You can't rationalize it any other way.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby the riddler on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:59 am

topshelf wrote:
since1970 wrote:...does anyone know if he was appointed by the community as the neighborhood watch, and why would TM not know there was a neighborhood watch? Why wouldn't his father tell him, hey, we have a neighborhood watch, there's been a rash of burglaries, so if anyone asks you what you're doing, just tell them you're visiting me. I know that's what I would do with anyone visiting me. Plus, who's to say the Martins preconceptions didn't affect his behavior that night. I know people like to say, it's no one's business what he was doing. I know my first reaction would be to just tell the guy when he asked, I'm going back to my Dad's house, it's not like it would have bothered me to tell him, especially if this was the kind of Florida subdivision I'm used to where's it's basically a gated community. I woulda figured it's just a guy looking out for his neighbor's like people did when I grew up.


Honestly, no one knows whether any of this did or did not happen. Martin could have told Zimmerman he was going to his dad's house, Zimmerman could have introduced himself as a neighborhood watch guy... there are a million different "what ifs" that could have taken place but we'll never know. I will say, though, that both Martin and his father never conceived that Trayvon would be followed by a dude with a gun.


I'm pretty sure that Zimmerman admitted that he did not identify that he was apart of the neighborhood watch.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:59 am

topshelf wrote:no sane person would want a guy like Zimmerman in their neighborhood.


Then I must be insane. I have no problem with any of my neighbors who wishes to follow someone acting suspiciously in my neighborhood.

I'd expect them to call the police to report the activity (Which GZ did), I'd also hope that when the officers arrived that they'd be able to tell the officers where the suspect was located.

If in that process, the suspect jumps them, I'd say that they're perfectly within their right to use deadly force to protect themselves.

I could give a damn what color either of the individuals are.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby pfim on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 pm

If I knew my neighborhood watchman patrolled my neighborhood armed, I'd move immediately, regardless of cost. If one of my neighbors wants to play cop, it won't be in my neighborhood.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 pm

I wouldn't want neighborhood watch in my neighborhood, tbh.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:06 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
topshelf wrote:no sane person would want a guy like Zimmerman in their neighborhood.


Then I must be insane. I have no problem with any of my neighbors who wishes to follow someone acting suspiciously in my neighborhood.

I'd expect them to call the police to report the activity (Which GZ did), I'd also hope that when the officers arrived that they'd be able to tell the officers where the suspect was located.

If in that process, the suspect jumps them, I'd say that they're perfectly within their right to use deadly force to protect themselves.

I could give a damn what color either of the individuals are.


So you're okay with how it played out? If a person chooses to follow after someone, then gets jumped and punched by the person they were following, you have no problem with the initial follower shooting the other person dead?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:07 pm

since1970 wrote:...does anyone know if he was appointed by the community as the neighborhood watch, and why would TM not know there was a neighborhood watch? Why wouldn't his father tell him, hey, we have a neighborhood watch, there's been a rash of burglaries, so if anyone asks you what you're doing, just tell them you're visiting me. I know that's what I would do with anyone visiting me. Plus, who's to say the Martins preconceptions didn't affect his behavior that night. I know people like to say, it's no one's business what he was doing. I know my first reaction would be to just tell the guy when he asked, I'm going back to my Dad's house, it's not like it would have bothered me to tell him, especially if this was the kind of Florida subdivision I'm used to where's it's basically a gated community. I woulda figured it's just a guy looking out for his neighbor's like people did when I grew up.


Neighborhood watch is a really loosely organized thing in most areas. I would guess that 80% of the people that live in my neighborhood don't realize that we have a neighborhood watch. It generally just means that you watch out for suspicious behavior. There aren't necessarily set patrols or things like that.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:08 pm

I'll bet none of you (The ones posting that you're not fans of NW's), live in an Urban environment or a gated community.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby since1970 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:12 pm

.....please, can someone verify this was a gated, or walled community. I seem to remember it was, but I could be mistaken. I'm guessing from the post above it was agated community. I know as a one time resident of those communities you're very well informed of what's going on, at least I was, and some communities even have a newsletters or flyers they send out.
Last edited by since1970 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby pfim on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:14 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:I'll bet none of you (The ones posting that you're not fans of NW's), live in an Urban environment or a gated community.


I don't think having armed and untrained patrolman roaming the streets of your neighborhood is a good idea. I hope that's not what you're saying.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby pittsoccer33 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:19 pm

The episode is a lot like the Jordan Miles case in Pittsburgh. Even though that didn't result in his death I think that was even worse - kid walking through his neighborhood minding his own business and 3 undercover cops demand to see ID and then jump him - well of course the kid is going to run. Three guys dressed as hoodlums are saying they're cops. I'd think I was being robbed too. Then they beat him mercilessly. And were let off the hook for it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:21 pm

pittsoccer33 wrote:The episode is a lot like the Jordan Miles case in Pittsburgh. Even though that didn't result in his death I think that was even worse - kid walking through his neighborhood minding his own business and 3 undercover cops demand to see ID and then jump him - well of course the kid is going to run. Three guys dressed as hoodlums are saying they're cops. I'd think I was being robbed too. Then they beat him mercilessly. And were let off the hook for it.


And they were "trained" cops were they not?

:pop:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:22 pm

pfim wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I'll bet none of you (The ones posting that you're not fans of NW's), live in an Urban environment or a gated community.


I don't think having armed and untrained patrolman roaming the streets of your neighborhood is a good idea. I hope that's not what you're saying.


That's really not what neighborhood watch is.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:25 pm

MWB wrote:
pfim wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I'll bet none of you (The ones posting that you're not fans of NW's), live in an Urban environment or a gated community.


I don't think having armed and untrained patrolman roaming the streets of your neighborhood is a good idea. I hope that's not what you're saying.


That's really not what neighborhood watch is.


The anti-NW group wants to paint a picture of Barney Fife sneaking around with his loaded gun drawn..

If the testimony is to be believed, and this point wasn't disputed by the prosecution, GZ didn't pull his gun until quite a few punches after the altercation began.

(It's hard to believe that Tayvon would have reacted the way he did if he knew that GZ was armed)
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby pfim on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:27 pm

MWB wrote:
pfim wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I'll bet none of you (The ones posting that you're not fans of NW's), live in an Urban environment or a gated community.


I don't think having armed and untrained patrolman roaming the streets of your neighborhood is a good idea. I hope that's not what you're saying.


That's really not what neighborhood watch is.


I get that, I'm just relating it to this case.

And of course we don't know exactly what happened here between the two, that's the crux of the argument.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:31 pm

I'd love to know what you all would have thought if you'd been around for the Bernie Goetz shootings in 1984
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby King Sid the Great 87 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:38 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:(It's hard to believe that Tayvon would have reacted the way he did if he knew that GZ was armed)


I have no opinion on this whole story, but for fun:

Would it be hard to believe that George Zimmerman would have behaved differently than he did if he was unarmed?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:43 pm

King Sid the Great 87 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:(It's hard to believe that Tayvon would have reacted the way he did if he knew that GZ was armed)


I have no opinion on this whole story, but for fun:

Would it be hard to believe that George Zimmerman would have behaved differently than he did if he was unarmed?


Absolutely. No one ever said that the two were mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't think of following a potential felon (Assuming GZ thought TM was someone involved in the B&E's), without a weapon.

While it's complete speculation, I'm nearly certain GZ acts differently if he's unarmed.

It doesn't change the fact that I'll bet TM doesn't circle back, or accost GZ if he has even an inkling that GZ is armed. (and the point of that was to debunk the image of GZ peaking around corners with his gun loaded and drawn)
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