Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:43 pm

Now he can go all the way and become a masked vigilante.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:57 pm

BREAKING: President Barack Obama says black Americans feel pain after the Trayvon Martin verdict because of a "history that doesn't go away."
Obama spoke in a surprise appearance Friday at the White House, his first time appearing for a statement on the verdict since it was issued last Saturday.


This should help....
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:59 pm

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:11 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
BREAKING: President Barack Obama says black Americans feel pain after the Trayvon Martin verdict because of a "history that doesn't go away."
Obama spoke in a surprise appearance Friday at the White House, his first time appearing for a statement on the verdict since it was issued last Saturday.


This should help....

the history of people from peru owning african slaves? im confused.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:15 pm

i don't understand the "coward" thing. the guy is a turd, but by definition, a coward wouldn't go confront anyone about anything.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:17 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Lets not get crazy about this carrying a gun for protection. He carried a gun and joined the community watch for a reason. For the same reason.

He (and his wife) both got their guns and CCW permits in 2009..... on the advice of an animal control officer who had been called to their neighborhood three or four times in response to a neighbor's dog that kept getting free from its yard.

GaryRissling wrote:The Onion captures reality perfectly once again:
All they had to do, according to the undoubtedly moronic but explicitly written Florida statutes, was create a “reasonable doubt” as to whether he acted in self-defense.


yep.

While I'm a huge fan of the Onion, and have been for 20+ years, the 'reasonable doubt' standard goes back to the Middle Ages. There's nothing effed up about it whatsoever..... provided the jury has a clear definition of 'reasonable'. To that end, the instructions given to the Zimmerman jury read as follows:

A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find George Zimmerman not guilty because the doubt is reasonable.

It is to the evidence introduced in this trial, and to it alone, that you are to look for that
proof.


I don't see a problem with those instructions.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:41 pm

Obama seriously needs to stop commenting on the trial.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:46 pm

Gaucho wrote:Obama seriously needs to stop commenting on the trial.

If that were his biggest mistake as president, I could live with it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Hockeynut! on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:07 pm

I listened to the statement and thought it was pretty well reasoned. He said that most African Americans know what it is like to be followed or viewed suspiciously (which I doubt many would argue with) and that they're carrying those experiences into how they viewed what happened to Martin. He didn't say Zimmerman did anything wrong. He said the trial was fair and handled well and seemed to infer that there would be no involvement from the federal government (which some idiots had been clamoring for). He even noted that young, black men perpetrate a disproportionately large percentage of crimes. I didn't see anything in his comments that could be remotely inflammatory to either side.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:10 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:I listened to the statement and thought it was pretty well reasoned. He said that most African Americans know what it is like to be followed or viewed suspiciously (which I doubt many would argue with) and that they're carrying those experiences into how they viewed what happened to Martin. He didn't say Zimmerman did anything wrong. He said the trial was fair and handled well and seemed to infer that there would be no involvement from the federal government (which some idiots had been clamoring for). He even noted that young, black men perpetrate a disproportionately large percentage of crimes. I didn't see anything in his comments that could be remotely inflammatory to either side.

This time, OK.

During the trial... Not so much.

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:11 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:I listened to the statement and thought it was pretty well reasoned. He said that most African Americans know what it is like to be followed or viewed suspiciously (which I doubt many would argue with) and that they're carrying those experiences into how they viewed what happened to Martin. He didn't say Zimmerman did anything wrong. He said the trial was fair and handled well and seemed to infer that there would be no involvement from the federal government (which some idiots had been clamoring for). He even noted that young, black men perpetrate a disproportionately large percentage of crimes. I didn't see anything in his comments that could be remotely inflammatory to either side.


Sorry, I should've pointed out that I was specifically referring to his statment that "Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago".

Which, as I realize now, was somewhat taken out of context.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Hockeynut! on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:27 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"


Even that was, I think, Taken out of context. He was directing that remark to Martin's parents, empathizing with their loss and saying that they deserved a fair investigation. Here's what he said then:


“I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this,” Mr. Obama said. “All of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen. Obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through,” Mr. Obama said, his face grim. “When I think about this boy, I think about my own kids.”

The most powerful line came at the end of his brief remarks, as he said that his “main message” was directed at the parents of Mr. Martin, who have expressed their deep grief during interviews on television over the last several days.

“You know, if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,” Mr. Obama said, pausing for a moment. “I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and we are going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. I’m the head of the executive branch, and the attorney general reports to me,” Mr. Obama said. “So I’ve got to be careful about my statements to make sure that we’re not impairing any investigation that’s taking place right now.”

His remarks really weren't much different from what the R candidates running for Pres. said at the time:

In a statement on Friday, Mitt Romney, the presumed front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination, said: “What happened to Trayvon Martin is a tragedy. There needs to be a thorough investigation that reassures the public that justice is carried out with impartiality and integrity.”

Rick Santorum made some pointed comments about the killing while campaigning at a shooting range in West Monroe, La., before the Louisiana primary on Saturday. “Well, stand your ground is not doing what this man did,” he said. “There’s a difference between stand your ground and doing what he did. It’s a horrible case. I mean it’s chilling to hear what happened, and of course the fact that law enforcement didn’t immediately go after and prosecute this case is another chilling example of horrible decisions made by people in this process.”

Newt Gingrich, campaigning Friday in Port Fourchon, La., said the district attorney had done “the right thing” in empaneling a grand jury. But, speaking of Mr. Zimmerman, he said it was “pretty clear that this is a guy who found a hobby that’s very dangerous. Having some kind of neighborhood watch is reasonable, but you had somebody who was clearly overreaching,” Mr. Gingrich said. “As I understand Florida law, what he was doing had nothing to do with the law that people are talking about.”
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:39 pm

I just read Obama's full statement from today.

Obama also suggested that the outcome of the case could have been different if Martin were white. "If a white male teen would have been involved in this scenario," he said, "both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different."


The above is a completely irresponsible quote that almost seems to be designed to stoke racial tension. And I'm not surprised he said it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:43 pm

Saying that it seems to be designed to stoke racial tension isn't any less irresponsible. Then again, you're not the president.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:45 pm

Gaucho wrote:Saying that it seems to be designed to stoke racial tension isn't any less irresponsible. Then again, you're not the president.


There's just no reason to make a statement like that, especially in the midst of flareups of violence, vandalism etc occurring across the country.

And I'm not just a member of the shafnutz05 fan club, I'm the president.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby 71Aj66ax87 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:46 pm

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:46 pm

out of curiosity, gaucho, what other reason would he (the president) have to say that?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:50 pm

The whole "i could have been Trayvon Martin" quote really bothered me because it looked at nothing in the situation other than the race of the person involved. When obama was a teenager, did he tend to get in violent altercations with "crazy ass crackers"? I just think his behavior in this while situation has been extremely inappropriate.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:54 pm

I agree that it's not very helpful to talk about it on this sort of personal level.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:03 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:I just read Obama's full statement from today.

Obama also suggested that the outcome of the case could have been different if Martin were white. "If a white male teen would have been involved in this scenario," he said, "both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different."


The above is a completely irresponsible quote that almost seems to be designed to stoke racial tension. And I'm not surprised he said it.


It's also not in context. I'll broaden it a little more:

I think the African-American community is also not naive in understanding that statistically somebody like Trayvon Martin was probably statistically more likely to be shot by a peer than he was by somebody else.

So — so folks understand the challenges that exist for African-American boys, but they get frustrated, I think, if they feel that there’s no context for it or — and that context is being denied. And — and that all contributes, I think, to a sense that if a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, that, from top to bottom, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different.


He was trying to illustrate some reasons for why people in the black community may feel a certain way.

My initial response to hearing that he said he could have been Martin was annoyance. The I read the whole statement. Media just likes to pick out the most sensational part and run with it. The statement in its entirety is very good, I think. This is a national story and something everyone is taking about and discussing. Why should the president shy away from it? I would actually like it if politicians did this more so we know how they feel about stuff and who they are, at least a little bit.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:14 pm

I guess I am just annoyed with the massive focus on race, even though it's to be expected.

As others have pointed out, Roderick Scott, A BLACK MAN, was acquitted by a jury in the death of a WHITE TEENAGER.

Read about the case....it is literally an EXACT reversal of the Zimmerman/Martin incident. This is why I get so irritated when Obama goes full dirtbag and ponders what would have happened in an alternate reality. Well, there you have it. A BLACK MAN was acquitted for killing a WHITE TEENAGER.

Let me be clear that I have no issue with Scott's acquittal, but it just points out the sheer ludicrous nature of this entire stupid saga. An entire nation, including the president, mourns Trayvon **** Martin because he is a black 17 year old that got killed by a "white Hispanic". Meanwhile, the same exact thing happened three years ago but no one has heard about it (as they probably shouldn't) because the victim wasn't black.

I'm well aware of our nation's past, but I am sick and tired of the victim mentality that is constantly perpetuated by the media, and being reinforced today by the president . Enough already, it's nauseating.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:32 pm

That's mostly media driven, as you know. Obama is reacting to a story the media has made so big and the country has glommed onto. And I don't really think Obama was "mourning" Martin. I guess I'm surprised someone can read the full statement and think he's playing a victim card in any way.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby 71Aj66ax87 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:41 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:I guess I am just annoyed with the massive focus on race, even though it's to be expected.

As others have pointed out, Roderick Scott, A BLACK MAN, was acquitted by a jury in the death of a WHITE TEENAGER.

Read about the case....it is literally an EXACT reversal of the Zimmerman/Martin incident. This is why I get so irritated when Obama goes full dirtbag and ponders what would have happened in an alternate reality. Well, there you have it. A BLACK MAN was acquitted for killing a WHITE TEENAGER.

Let me be clear that I have no issue with Scott's acquittal, but it just points out the sheer ludicrous nature of this entire stupid saga. An entire nation, including the president, mourns Trayvon **** Martin because he is a black 17 year old that got killed by a "white Hispanic". Meanwhile, the same exact thing happened three years ago but no one has heard about it (as they probably shouldn't) because the victim wasn't black.

I'm well aware of our nation's past, but I am sick and tired of the victim mentality that is constantly perpetuated by the media, and being reinforced today by the president . Enough already, it's nauseating.


Zimmerman isn't white he's Anglo Latino.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Hockeynut! on Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:58 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:This is why I get so irritated when Obama goes full dirtbag and ponders what would have happened in an alternate reality.
I'm well aware of our nation's past, but I am sick and tired of the victim mentality that is constantly perpetuated by the media, and being reinforced today by the president . Enough already, it's nauseating.


You're completely misconstruing what he said. You need to read it in context. He was saying that blacks have a history of being viewed suspiciously so when they think they're being followed, they carry those past fears/angers/etc. into every scenario. He didn't say if Martin was white, the outcome might have been different. He said some people in the black community think that if Martin was white, the outcome was different. Pulling out that quote the way you (or whoever you copied it from) is downright sleazy. ;) It would be like you saying, "Some of hockey's top analysts think Claude Giroux is a better leader than Crosby" and me running around shouting, "Shad said Giroux is a better leader than Crosby!"

Obama even said in his comments that young, black males commit a disproportionate percentage of crimes. He wasn't saying "whitey is evil" despite what you want to believe. He's simply saying that the black community carries their own personal experiences into these situations and that's also why they can so easily put themselves in Martin's shoes. Even Fox News (online) and Zimmerman's own brother aren't trying to spin this the way you are.
Last edited by Hockeynut! on Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:03 am

It's about the ability to understand the experience of others, aka empathy.
As has been pointed out (and admitted) in this general forum, some lack that.
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