Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:32 pm

columbia wrote:I've read enough of his posts on the subject to properly understand it.


guns are a fun hobby apparently. like scrabble. you want to come take away my scrabble? ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,268
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:33 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
SYG law reads "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat..." blah blah.


Too bad TM didn't have the firepower to stand his ground. Right?
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 40,572
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:33 pm

Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:
columbia wrote:It certainly makes it easier to get away with killing people.


Exactly, and that's my beef with it. When the gray area of a law constitutes lives being taken, then one has to question the validity of the law.

I don't think anyone has a problem with someone standing their ground in a breaking and entering, muggings, etc., but beyond that the law is left open to interpretation and I don't see that as a good thing.

Would you prefer to have a law that errs on the side of innocent people (i.e. those who legitimately acted in self-defense) being sent to prison, or a law that errs on the side of the guilty going free?


I'd rather have a law that errs on the side dignity of a life and doesn't inhibit the wrong people from exploiting it to their advantage.

columbia wrote:
Shyster wrote:
columbia wrote:I'd prefer you to melt your guns.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


This is one of the things that is wrong about some guns owners.
There are those of us in the world who would prefer that they didn't exist and your reaction is threaten violence in self-defense over an idea.

The idea being peace.


:thumb:

It is rooted in the idea that one needs to constantly have the advantage over another. Some people are very content with the idea of society as a whole "losing" a little bit if it keeps everybody from "winning". The idea of everyone being on the same playing field (gunless) doesn't support the need to have advantage over another.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,591
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:33 pm

shmenguin wrote:
columbia wrote:I've read enough of his posts on the subject to properly understand it.


guns are a fun hobby apparently. like scrabble. you want to come take away my scrabble? ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Over my dead QIIUWEOR!!!
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 40,572
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:35 pm

Find me a country that has taken away guns that has had their violent crime rate reduce dramatically...
Grunthy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,780
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:35 pm

Gaucho wrote:A tongue in greek latin phrase.


:lol:
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,591
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Why are guns even an issue? Would we be arguing if Zimmerman had stabbed Martin instead?
Last edited by MRandall25 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,579
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Guinness on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:41 pm

count2infinity wrote:Perhaps some of you didn't grow up in a place similar to Bedford County and visit there on a regular basis to know that racism is, in fact, alive and well.


Wait, you're from Bedford? Still live there?
Guinness
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,330
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:30 am
Location: At the pub

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:41 pm

Grunthy wrote:Find me a country that has taken away guns that has had their violent crime rate reduce dramatically...


First you have to find me a developed country that has a higher violent crime rate than the United States.

It doesn't exist.

http://azdailysun.com/news/opinion/mailbag/u-s-still-leads-in-violent-crime/article_cd6b4dde-ff38-5de1-af8a-bdae6fd2561c.html

The best case for a peaceful armed people is probably Switzerland, with high gun ownership rates and very low lethal violence rates. However, Switzerland also has many, consistent gun laws.


But we can't have gun laws here, right?
Last edited by topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,591
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:43 pm

I was kind of hoping that Guinness was going to tell me that I'm too idealistic. :pop: :lol:
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,489
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:49 pm

topshelf wrote:It is rooted in the idea that one needs to constantly have the advantage over another. Some people are very content with the idea of society as a whole "losing" a little bit if it keeps everybody from "winning". The idea of everyone being on the same playing field (gunless) doesn't support the need to have advantage over another.

But being gunless won't level the playing field. Take the examples I cited above: the tiny woman facing a large man and the elderly man facing a young, strong women. Nature, time, genetics—whatever you want to call it, those people are not on the same playing field. In fact, I would argue that a truly level playing field would be where everyone has a gun. That way, everyone is equally capable of inflicting the same amount of harm on everyone else (although I suppose the blind would still be hampered).
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,047
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:49 pm

I always get a kick out of how gun rights folks are so quick to invoke Leonidas at Thermopylae. "Come and take them", all defiant and whatnot...... as if the Persians didn't do exactly that, slaughtering every last one of the defending Spartans in the process. Sure it took three days. But they came and took.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,589
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:50 pm

tifosi77 wrote:How the heck is that a proper application of SYG??

I agree there are some questionable cases, and the law will be sorted out in caselaw going forward. I don’t think that justifies repealing the law entirely, however.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,047
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:51 pm

topshelf wrote:
Grunthy wrote:Find me a country that has taken away guns that has had their violent crime rate reduce dramatically...


First you have to find me a developed country that has a higher violent crime rate than the United States.

It doesn't exist.

http://azdailysun.com/news/opinion/mailbag/u-s-still-leads-in-violent-crime/article_cd6b4dde-ff38-5de1-af8a-bdae6fd2561c.html

The best case for a peaceful armed people is probably Switzerland, with high gun ownership rates and very low lethal violence rates. However, Switzerland also has many, consistent gun laws.


But we can't have gun laws here, right?



Russia and Poland
Grunthy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,780
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Ah, Russia...
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 40,572
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:54 pm

tifosi77 wrote:I always get a kick out of how gun rights folks are so quick to invoke Leonidas at Thermopylae. "Come and take them", all defiant and whatnot...... as if the Persians didn't do exactly that, slaughtering every last one of the defending Spartans in the process. Sure it took three days. But they came and took.

Yeesh. Okay, "Come and take it."

Better? :wink:
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,047
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:57 pm

Gaucho wrote:Ah, Russia...



They are a developed country...
Grunthy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,780
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:57 pm

Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:It is rooted in the idea that one needs to constantly have the advantage over another. Some people are very content with the idea of society as a whole "losing" a little bit if it keeps everybody from "winning". The idea of everyone being on the same playing field (gunless) doesn't support the need to have advantage over another.

But being gunless won't level the playing field. Take the examples I cited above: the tiny woman facing a large man and the elderly man facing a young, strong women. Nature, time, genetics—whatever you want to call it, those people are not on the same playing field. In fact, I would argue that a truly level playing field would be where everyone has a gun. That way, everyone is equally capable of inflicting the same amount of harm on everyone else (although I suppose the blind would still be hampered).


I don't mean no offense, but that's a sad way to look at things.
Last edited by Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 40,572
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:02 pm

Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:It is rooted in the idea that one needs to constantly have the advantage over another. Some people are very content with the idea of society as a whole "losing" a little bit if it keeps everybody from "winning". The idea of everyone being on the same playing field (gunless) doesn't support the need to have advantage over another.

But being gunless won't level the playing field. Take the examples I cited above: the tiny woman facing a large man and the elderly man facing a young, strong women. Nature, time, genetics—whatever you want to call it, those people are not on the same playing field. In fact, I would argue that a truly level playing field would be where everyone has a gun. That way, everyone is equally capable of inflicting the same amount of harm on everyone else (although I suppose the blind would still be hampered).


But my original stance wasn't to repeal the law completely.

In regards to the playing field being leveled, and this is a problem that I have with the mind frame of the pro-gun movement, is that these situations aren't happening on a steady basis. How often do you hear of cases where little old ladies shoot people because they are being mugged? The NRA and pro-guns folks propagate this illusion of fear and that our roads are filled with millions of people waiting to beat up old women. That is a myth that is used to justify their case, and the myth isn't enough (in my opinion, again), to justify a loosely written law that gives fearful, trigger happy people a loophole if they get a bit jumpy.

Gaucho wrote:Ah, Russia...


:lol:

If those in favor of guns are looking to Russia for justification, I rest my case.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,591
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:07 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:It is rooted in the idea that one needs to constantly have the advantage over another. Some people are very content with the idea of society as a whole "losing" a little bit if it keeps everybody from "winning". The idea of everyone being on the same playing field (gunless) doesn't support the need to have advantage over another.

But being gunless won't level the playing field. Take the examples I cited above: the tiny woman facing a large man and the elderly man facing a young, strong women. Nature, time, genetics—whatever you want to call it, those people are not on the same playing field. In fact, I would argue that a truly level playing field would be where everyone has a gun. That way, everyone is equally capable of inflicting the same amount of harm on everyone else (although I suppose the blind would still be hampered).


I don't mean no offense, but that's a sad way to look at thing.


It's a mind frame that is rooted in the manipulation by the mass media in our world. People are bombarded every day by these fabricated and exaggerated stories in the media which intentionally produce fear. It takes a human being a decent amount of time to consume and process these fears, but, before they can do that, it is a new day and there are new fears to report. If one doesn't think this is true, watch FOX News or MSNBC for a while. This ultimately makes people generally fearful, disenfranchised, and cut off. They begin to see the world as "bad", along with many of those who inhabit it.

When I was in college I was a bartender in a very nice area where crime was very low. We had a regular bar patron who was in everyday, and the guy always carried his gun with him. One day I asked him why, and he said, "Because, if a guy walks in that door with a gun, I'm gonna take him out." To me, living in that heightened state of fear and edginess is bizarre and unhealthy.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,591
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:10 pm

Can we stop pretending that our problems with violence in this country are analogous with those of Europe?

And that 73%/59% stat is garbage. You could look at the same data and come to the conclusion that black people are better at getting away with murder.
Froggy
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,520
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:40 pm
Location: http://DrunkInAGraveyard.com

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:12 pm

topshelf wrote:To me, living in that heightened state of fear and edginess is bizarre and unhealthy.


:thumb:
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 40,572
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:13 pm

topshelf wrote:
Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:It is rooted in the idea that one needs to constantly have the advantage over another. Some people are very content with the idea of society as a whole "losing" a little bit if it keeps everybody from "winning". The idea of everyone being on the same playing field (gunless) doesn't support the need to have advantage over another.

But being gunless won't level the playing field. Take the examples I cited above: the tiny woman facing a large man and the elderly man facing a young, strong women. Nature, time, genetics—whatever you want to call it, those people are not on the same playing field. In fact, I would argue that a truly level playing field would be where everyone has a gun. That way, everyone is equally capable of inflicting the same amount of harm on everyone else (although I suppose the blind would still be hampered).


But my original stance wasn't to repeal the law completely.

In regards to the playing field being leveled, and this is a problem that I have with the mind frame of the pro-gun movement, is that these situations aren't happening on a steady basis. How often do you hear of cases where little old ladies shoot people because they are being mugged? The NRA and pro-guns folks propagate this illusion of fear and that our roads are filled with millions of people waiting to beat up old women. That is a myth that is used to justify their case, and the myth isn't enough (in my opinion, again), to justify a loosely written law that gives fearful, trigger happy people a loophole if they get a bit jumpy.

Gaucho wrote:Ah, Russia...


:lol:

If those in favor of guns are looking to Russia for justification, I rest my case.



Approx. 900k or more cases a year are crimes stopped in the US by guns of private citizens. There was a reported 12 million crimes in the US. So it definitely helps having a gun.
Grunthy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,780
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:15 pm

topshelf wrote:In regards to the playing field being leveled, and this is a problem that I have with the mind frame of the pro-gun movement, is that these situations aren't happening on a steady basis. How often do you hear of cases where little old ladies shoot people because they are being mugged? The NRA and pro-guns folks propagate this illusion of fear and that our roads are filled with millions of people waiting to beat up old women. That is a myth that is used to justify their case, and the myth isn't enough (in my opinion, again), to justify a loosely written law that gives fearful, trigger happy people a loophole if they get a bit jumpy.

Are you sure your opposition to CG/SYG laws is not rooted in your antipathy toward guns and the concept of armed self-defense in general?
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,047
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:17 pm

Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:In regards to the playing field being leveled, and this is a problem that I have with the mind frame of the pro-gun movement, is that these situations aren't happening on a steady basis. How often do you hear of cases where little old ladies shoot people because they are being mugged? The NRA and pro-guns folks propagate this illusion of fear and that our roads are filled with millions of people waiting to beat up old women. That is a myth that is used to justify their case, and the myth isn't enough (in my opinion, again), to justify a loosely written law that gives fearful, trigger happy people a loophole if they get a bit jumpy.

Are you sure your opposition to CG/SYG laws is not rooted in your antipathy toward guns and the concept of armed self-defense in general?


Very sure. I previously stated that, even though I am not a fan of guns, I'm ok with SYG in cases of a breaking and entering, robbery, or a mugging.

Also, while not being a fan of guns, I'm not upset that they are legal, but I am upset that they aren't regulated more.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,591
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SolidSnake and 6 guests

e-mail