Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:17 pm

Gaucho wrote:I don't mean no offense, but that's a sad way to look at things.

Perhaps. But is it unrealistic?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:23 pm

Gaucho wrote:
topshelf wrote:To me, living in that heightened state of fear and edginess is bizarre and unhealthy.

:thumb:

Does one expect to get in a car accident when he puts on a seat belt? Does one buy a fire extinguisher out of the "fear and edginess" that his house will catch on fire? Is it bizarre and unhealthy to buy life insurance in case one dies unexpectedly young? Or are all of those merely preparations for a event that, while highly unlikely to occur, carries such a severe negative impact that preparation is not unreasonable?

I don't expect to ever use any of my guns for self-defense. That doesn't mean that it won't ever happen.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:25 pm

Shyster wrote:
I don't expect to ever use any of my guns for self-defense. That doesn't mean that it won't ever happen.


Fair enough.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
topshelf wrote:To me, living in that heightened state of fear and edginess is bizarre and unhealthy.

:thumb:

Does one expect to get in a car accident when he puts on a seat belt? Does one buy a fire extinguisher out of the "fear and edginess" that his house will catch on fire? Is it bizarre and unhealthy to buy life insurance in case one dies unexpectedly young? Or are all of those merely preparations for a event that, while highly unlikely to occur, carries such a severe negative impact that preparation is not unreasonable?


Seat belts, fire extinguishers, and life insurance don't kill people, and, even in the wrong hands, are still seat belts, fire extinguishers, and life insurance.

Shyster wrote:I don't expect to ever use any of my guns for self-defense. That doesn't mean that it won't ever happen.


I'm glad to hear that. I wish other people shared your mode of thinking.

That being said, since you use it for self-defense, you shouldn't be opposed to strict gun laws, right?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:33 pm

topshelf wrote:Very sure. I previously stated that, even though I am not a fan of guns, I'm ok with SYG in cases of a breaking and entering, robbery, or a mugging.

Okay. But you do concede that there may be situations where might need to resort to self-defense in situations that do not fall into any of those categories, yes? What to do then? And do you agree with my proposition that making it harder for someone to demonstrate self-defense will result in more innocent people being convicted and sent to prison?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:33 pm

I would say most have his line of thinking. The US has a lot of gun laws, but refuses to actually enforce.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:34 pm

topshelf wrote:That being said, since you use it for self-defense, you shouldn't be opposed to strict gun laws, right?

What additional laws would you like?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:38 pm

Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
topshelf wrote:To me, living in that heightened state of fear and edginess is bizarre and unhealthy.

:thumb:

Does one expect to get in a car accident when he puts on a seat belt? Does one buy a fire extinguisher out of the "fear and edginess" that his house will catch on fire? Is it bizarre and unhealthy to buy life insurance in case one dies unexpectedly young? Or are all of those merely preparations for a event that, while highly unlikely to occur, carries such a severe negative impact that preparation is not unreasonable?

I don't expect to ever use any of my guns for self-defense. That doesn't mean that it won't ever happen.

Not really looking to weigh in too much on the issue of self-defense (I'm in favor of private gun ownership and concealed carry, after all), but I think those examples you cite do an excellent job of illustrating topshelf's point. Putting on a seatbelt.... buying a fire extinguisher.... insurance..... all more or less passive actions that need not impose anything on any other party but oneself. And while it's true that a gun can be wielded in self-defense without being fired, you are still talking about carrying around on your hip the ability to mete out someone else's demise. That's why I think the expected standard of behavior and decision making for people who choose to carry a firearm in public should be elevated above that of someone who has a fire extinguisher next to their kettle grill.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:48 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Not really looking to weigh in too much on the issue of self-defense (I'm in favor of private gun ownership and concealed carry, after all), but I think those examples you cite do an excellent job of illustrating topshelf's point. Putting on a seatbelt.... buying a fire extinguisher.... insurance..... all more or less passive actions that need not impose anything on any other party but oneself. And while it's true that a gun can be wielded in self-defense without being fired, you are still talking about carrying around on your hip the ability to mete out someone else's demise. That's why I think the expected standard of behavior and decision making for people who choose to carry a firearm in public should be elevated above that of someone who has a fire extinguisher next to their kettle grill.

I don't necessarily disagree that those people should strive to meet a higher standard in terms of behavior and decision-making (although I bet someone could certainly be beaten to death with a metal fire extinguisher). My point was that carrying a gun is not per se unreasonable or necessarily the product of fear or panic.

Look, I'm the kind of guy whose car contains a first-aid kit, flares, jumper cables, bag of tools (including an axe, folding saw, and folding shovel), and fire extinguisher. Am I paranoid because I like to be prepared for contingencies?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:52 pm

I guess my problem is I can't shake the image of you carrying a gun to the grocery store wearing your Bermudas. :lol:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:54 pm

@topshelf

even though i somewhat agree with you, it would be great to have less gun crimes, regulating weapons just isnt going to happen unless the majority of them get confiscated over decades by some gun hunting arm of the government. there are too many in circulation, too many unregistered and passed around to accomplish that, not to mention the obvious resistance to such a thing.

i see zero ways any "strict" gun law helps anything you want prevented. if one wants a gun badly enough, one will end up with a gun somehow. this is an off the cuff post, so if i'm wrong...shoot.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:37 pm

Shyster wrote:Okay. But you do concede that there may be situations where might need to resort to self-defense in situations that do not fall into any of those categories, yes? What to do then? And do you agree with my proposition that making it harder for someone to demonstrate self-defense will result in more innocent people being convicted and sent to prison?


I agree that there may be the odds and ends case that may fall out of the mentioned situations, but I believe (just an opinion) that, out of the "uncategorized" or "anomalies" or what have you, there is a portion of those cases are either situations where someone prematurely shot or where the person with the gun was the aggressor and has the option of constructing the story to fit his or her needs. In my mind, that opportunity for error doesn't justify the looseness of the law.

Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:That being said, since you use it for self-defense, you shouldn't be opposed to strict gun laws, right?

What additional laws would you like?


Background checks for all, including private sales. Any sale without a background check warrants a felony. No assault weapons (why does one need to own one?). A mandate stating that the gun owner is ultimately responsible for the gun, so, for example, if his or her child takes it and accidentally kills another kid, the gun owner is tried for the death of said child.

Kaizer wrote:@topshelf

even though i somewhat agree with you, it would be great to have less gun crimes, regulating weapons just isnt going to happen unless the majority of them get confiscated over decades by some gun hunting arm of the government. there are too many in circulation, too many unregistered and passed around to accomplish that, not to mention the obvious resistance to such a thing.

i see zero ways any "strict" gun law helps anything you want prevented. if one wants a gun badly enough, one will end up with a gun somehow. this is an off the cuff post, so if i'm wrong...shoot.


I agree, although I wouldn't have used the expression, "shoot". :wink:

You'd have to start somewhere. It may take years to confiscate those that are owned illegally, but it's progress. They could make more incentives to have them turned in and whatnot. My thing is I don't see the size of the project as a deterrent to the need to get it done.

I also agree that some people will get a gun if they really want one, but I also feel that some of the wrong people that have guns only have them because they were so easy to obtain.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:50 am

Guinness wrote:
count2infinity wrote:Perhaps some of you didn't grow up in a place similar to Bedford County and visit there on a regular basis to know that racism is, in fact, alive and well.


Wait, you're from Bedford? Still live there?


No, my parents still do though.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:19 am

count2infinity wrote:
Guinness wrote:
count2infinity wrote:Perhaps some of you didn't grow up in a place similar to Bedford County and visit there on a regular basis to know that racism is, in fact, alive and well.


Wait, you're from Bedford? Still live there?


No, my parents still do though.


Yeah, I agree count2infinity... Anyone who doesn't agree racism is alive and well should spend some time in Florida. I never expected to see such drastic change from what I experienced in Pennsylvania when I moved here.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:32 am

Is anybody actually saying that racism doesn't exist anymore?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:34 am

PensFanInDC wrote:Is anybody actually saying that racism doesn't exist anymore?


DelPen wrote:You would think race relations are a major problem in this country and they really aren't anymore.


Pretty close
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:42 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:Is anybody actually saying that racism doesn't exist anymore?


DelPen wrote:You would think race relations are a major problem in this country and they really aren't anymore.


Pretty close


Shyster summed it up best (IMNSHO)


Shyster wrote:The question is to what extent they (racists and racism) still exist, and whether that matches the perception of racism.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:44 am

topshelf wrote:
Shyster wrote:
topshelf wrote:That being said, since you use it for self-defense, you shouldn't be opposed to strict gun laws, right?

What additional laws would you like?


Background checks for all, including private sales. Any sale without a background check warrants a felony. No assault weapons (why does one need to own one?). A mandate stating that the gun owner is ultimately responsible for the gun, so, for example, if his or her child takes it and accidentally kills another kid, the gun owner is tried for the death of said child.

I'm with you on the background check thing, but you lost me with the no assault weapon thing. And the concept of owner liability is utterly bass ackward. If the owners themselves can be show to have acted in a negligent manner in the care and feeding of said weapon, then okay (which I think is already the law in many cases). But a blanket liability is a non-starter of a position.

I'll go you one further, tho: voluntary national licensure. Anyone willing to fulfill the requirements of a federal firearms license (not the same as the FFL for a retailer) gets universal CCW throughout the U.S., and a waiver of background check requirements during the term their license is valid. It's good for five years, and you have to annually demonstrate proficiency in both basic marksmanship and high stress shooting, and any felony convictions would result in immediate forfeiture of the license. It would be a voluntary program, so if there's any fear of 'gun registries' it would only apply to people who willingly sign up for it. (I'm not nearly as paranoid of a registry as others, believing that if the government wants to ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ, they will. Registry or no. Any real ability of the state 'militia' to ward of federal tyranny died over a century ago, and the belief that an armed citizenry - in 2013 - can ward off the might of the government is rather like the opening of "All In The Family" -- off-key nostalgia.)

topshelf wrote:Yeah, I agree count2infinity... Anyone who doesn't agree racism is alive and well should spend some time in Florida. I never expected to see such drastic change from what I experienced in Pennsylvania when I moved here.

Where in Florida are you? My family lived for a brief time in Fort Lauderdale. Which almost isn't even Florida anymore; my experience was once you got south of Lake Okeechobee (especially on the coasts) it wasn't really 'southern' in the fashion of the other 90% of the state.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:28 am

tifosi77 wrote:I'm with you on the background check thing, but you lost me with the no assault weapon thing. And the concept of owner liability is utterly bass ackward. If the owners themselves can be show to have acted in a negligent manner in the care and feeding of said weapon, then okay (which I think is already the law in many cases). But a blanket liability is a non-starter of a position.


I don't see the need for someone to possess an assault weapon/automatic weapon. They aren't needed to hunt or for self defense, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for mass murder (as we've seen recently).

In regards to owner liability, I believe that if you wish to own a gun then you should assume the proper responsibility that it takes to own said gun. This means keeping your gun in a safe and secure place so that accidents cannot happen. I'm not talking about a situation where someone breaks into your house or car and steals your gun, but the situations where one leaves it in an easy to find spot and a kid takes it and has an accident with it. In my mind, that situation resulted from owner negligence and the owner should be punished for that. I would like to think that most gun owners do take the proper precautions with their guns so, to them, this law would be a non issue.

I'll go you one further, tho: voluntary national licensure. Anyone willing to fulfill the requirements of a federal firearms license (not the same as the FFL for a retailer) gets universal CCW throughout the U.S., and a waiver of background check requirements during the term their license is valid. It's good for five years, and you have to annually demonstrate proficiency in both basic marksmanship and high stress shooting, and any felony convictions would result in immediate forfeiture of the license. It would be a voluntary program, so if there's any fear of 'gun registries' it would only apply to people who willingly sign up for it. (I'm not nearly as paranoid of a registry as others, believing that if the government wants to ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ, they will. Registry or no. Any real ability of the state 'militia' to ward of federal tyranny died over a century ago, and the belief that an armed citizenry - in 2013 - can ward off the might of the government is rather like the opening of "All In The Family" -- off-key nostalgia.)


I'm good with that idea, and, yes, the fear that the government is going to knock on your door and take your guns is laughable and, in my opinion, is perpetuated by conservative news outlets to further the sense of fear and angst against those who oppose their ideologies (both parties do it, but not with guns).

Where in Florida are you? My family lived for a brief time in Fort Lauderdale. Which almost isn't even Florida anymore; my experience was once you got south of Lake Okeechobee (especially on the coasts) it wasn't really 'southern' in the fashion of the other 90% of the state.


I am in Central Florida in an area that is comparable to Fort Lauderdale. Areas like Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, Daytona Beach, etc. are, as you put it, very much non-Floridian. Once you creep away from those areas you stumble into some of those truly "southern" towns where you feel as if you have just stepped out of a time machine and traveled 60 years in the past. A good example: my area is similar to Fort Lauderdale, but a 30 minute drive north of me takes you to a small, predominately redneck town where racism is rampant. There is even a lynching tree that they've tried to make a historical landmark. :face:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:38 am

topshelf wrote:I don't see the need for someone to possess an assault weapon/automatic weapon. They aren't needed to hunt or for self defense, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for mass murder (as we've seen recently).


I don't see the need for someone to possess an automobile. They aren't needed to get to work or to the store, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for deadly accidents and/or murder.

Just because YOU don't see the need to own one doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to own one.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:40 am

And you can't own an automatic weapon, anyway.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:43 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
topshelf wrote:I don't see the need for someone to possess an assault weapon/automatic weapon. They aren't needed to hunt or for self defense, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for mass murder (as we've seen recently).


I don't see the need for someone to possess an automobile. They aren't needed to get to work or to the store, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for deadly accidents and/or murder.

Just because YOU don't see the need to own one doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to own one.


Should we stretch this logic out to show its absurdity, or is it already evident?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:43 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
topshelf wrote:I don't see the need for someone to possess an assault weapon/automatic weapon. They aren't needed to hunt or for self defense, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for mass murder (as we've seen recently).


I don't see the need for someone to possess an automobile. They aren't needed to get to work or to the store, and, in the wrong hands, they are tools for deadly accidents and/or murder.

Just because YOU don't see the need to own one doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to own one.


There is a very real need for automobiles. Unless you are looking to kill a large number of people in a short period of time, there is no need for an automatic weapon. That is what automatic weapons were made to do.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:46 am

This is my point. It's a stupid argument to say "I dont see a need to own this object so NOBODY should own it".

Yes, the automobile argument is ridiculous. It was used to show how ridiculous the "nobody should own one" argument is. "Just because YOU don't see the need to own one doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to own one."
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:51 am

PensFanInDC wrote:This is my point. It's a stupid argument to say "I dont see a need to own this object so NOBODY should own it".

Yes, the automobile argument is ridiculous. It was used to show how ridiculous the "nobody should own one" argument is. "Just because YOU don't see the need to own one doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to own one."


Yep, ridiculous for people to say that automatic rifles shouldn't be available to everyone.
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