Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:57 pm

Where are you getting that 88% number from? No way that's true. Are you sure you didn't misplace a decimal point?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:24 pm

Not sure what relevance this article has, but I thought it was interesting enough to share:

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politi ... orld/4412/
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:25 pm

yeah you cannot compare gun rates between the US and the UK.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:31 pm

Froggy wrote:Where are you getting that 88% number from? No way that's true. Are you sure you didn't misplace a decimal point?


Yeah, that was my bad. The correct number is between 40-50%. That stat was guns per capita in the U.S.

Grunthy wrote:yeah you cannot compare gun rates between the US and the UK.


Why not? Because it doesn't support your opinion?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:36 pm

Show me a country in Europe with the same economic and cultural/ethnic diversity as we have in America, and the same population and infrastructure issues, and then we can talk apples to apples.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:38 pm

I would say an interesting comparison is USA and Australia.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:43 pm

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:50 pm

IMO, the gun culture of the US is directly related to the American Revolution and the Constitution. That's the foundation for pro gun attitudes.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:51 pm

If you want to compare crime, look at all violent crime instead of just gun crime. I have no doubt the U.S. has higher gun violence than the U.K, but overall violent crime is a lot lower in the U.S. than the U.K.

You are more likely to be knifed to death in the UK than you are to be shot in the US.

Most people don't want to admit it, but take out the inner city drug violence from the statistics and the U.S. has some of the lowest rates of violence rates in the world.

Another trend the media does everything in its power to portray is that gun violence is a growing at epidemic rates in the U.S. But when you look at the rates over the past 20 years its gone down significantly almost every year, yet gun ownership is going up and up.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:05 pm

topshelf wrote:
Shyster wrote:Okay. But you do concede that there may be situations where might need to resort to self-defense in situations that do not fall into any of those categories, yes? What to do then? And do you agree with my proposition that making it harder for someone to demonstrate self-defense will result in more innocent people being convicted and sent to prison?

I agree that there may be the odds and ends case that may fall out of the mentioned situations, but I believe (just an opinion) that, out of the "uncategorized" or "anomalies" or what have you, there is a portion of those cases are either situations where someone prematurely shot or where the person with the gun was the aggressor and has the option of constructing the story to fit his or her needs. In my mind, that opportunity for error doesn't justify the looseness of the law.

How would you draft a law to differentiate between what you believe are acceptable and non-acceptable situations for employing deadly force in self-defense? For example, you indicated that resisting robbery would be an acceptable situation for self-defense. Say, for example, that when I leave my office this evening someone jumps me, knocks me down, and starts punching the crap out of me. I fear for my safety and believe that I’m facing serious bodily injury, but I’m not sure why that person is beating me. Say I’m lawfully carrying a concealed firearm. Do I have to ask my assailant if he’s robbing me before I go for my gun? What if he responds, “Nah, I just felt like beating the **** out of someone,” and then keeps punching? Would that response require me say “Oh, okay,” keep my gun in my holster, and just keep taking the beating?

I also note that you appear to be calling for the right of self-defense to be limited well beyond the limited expansion brought by SYG laws. It has pretty much always been the case under our common-law tradition that one may use deadly force in self-defense if one reasonably believes he needs to do so in order to avoid the imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Many states, however, traditionally required that if the defendant was not in his home or place of business, then the defendant had a duty to attempt to retreat before resorting to deadly force. That duty to retreat, however, was qualified by the fact that the defendant was only expected to retreat if he or she could do so without risking his own life or safety or the safety of another. For example, a defendant facing someone brandishing a knife was not expected to see if they could outrun a stabbing attempt, nor was a defendant facing someone with a gun expected to try to dodge bullets in order to get away.

For example, I picked a random state that does not have a SYG law. Here’s what Iowa says on reasonable force for self-defense:
Reasonable force” is that force and no more which a reasonable person, in like circumstances, would judge to be necessary to prevent an injury or loss and can include deadly force if it is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to avoid injury or risk to one’s life or safety or the life or safety of another, or it is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to resist a like force or threat. Reasonable force, including deadly force, may be used even if an alternative course of action is available if the alternative entails a risk to life or safety, or the life or safety of a third party, or requires one to abandon or retreat from one’s dwelling or place of business or employment.

Thus, if one is not in one’s dwelling or place of business or employment, there is a duty to retreat but only if that does not involve “a risk to life or safety, or the life or safety of a third party.” There is only a duty to retreat if you can do so in safety. If not, then there is no duty to retreat. All SYG laws do is remove the requirement to retreat. They don’t change the basic requirement that one reasonably believe that deadly force is necessary to avoid serious injury or risk to one’s life.

Finally, I note that SYG states are in the significant majority. According to law professor Eugene Volokh, SYG states outnumber duty-to-retreat states by a 31–19 margin.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:16 pm

Froggy wrote:Show me a country in Europe with the same economic and cultural/ethnic diversity as we have in America, and the same population and infrastructure issues, and then we can talk apples to apples.

For a good discussion of the problems with comparing gun laws between nations, I suggest The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy by Dave Kopel. The book examines the sociological and historical bases for widely differing views between a sample of nations comprising Japan, Great Britain, Canada, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, Jamaica, and the United States when it comes to gun control. For example, it is true that the Japanese accept gun control that is so strict that private gun ownership is vanishingly rare. But as Kopel points out, the Japanese have historically accepted a level of government scrutiny, supervision, and control over private behavior that would be anathema to the traditional U.S. view of civil liberties.

The book is more than 20 years old, but I think the comparisons would still be valid today.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:30 pm

Or we could compare cyanide poisonings in the Oakland section of Pittsburgh with similar deaths elsewhere:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/ ... ittsburgh/

Just being a smart-a here, if someone wants to kill you, they're going to kill you.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:41 pm

Shyster wrote:
Froggy wrote:Show me a country in Europe with the same economic and cultural/ethnic diversity as we have in America, and the same population and infrastructure issues, and then we can talk apples to apples.

For a good discussion of the problems with comparing gun laws between nations, I suggest The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy by Dave Kopel. The book examines the sociological and historical bases for widely differing views between a sample of nations comprising Japan, Great Britain, Canada, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, Jamaica, and the United States when it comes to gun control. For example, it is true that the Japanese accept gun control that is so strict that private gun ownership is vanishingly rare. But as Kopel points out, the Japanese have historically accepted a level of government scrutiny, supervision, and control over private behavior that would be anathema to the traditional U.S. view of civil liberties.

The book is more than 20 years old, but I think the comparisons would still be valid today.


That book might be able to answer this question - Is there another country that has the same connection with guns that so many in the US have?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:49 pm

MWB wrote:That book might be able to answer this question - Is there another country that has the same connection with guns that so many in the US have?

Not among the other nations covered, no.

Edit: I think statistics would bear that out as well. The U.S. is (by far) #1 in the world in terms of per-capita firearms ownership, and U.S. citizens own roughly 1/3 of the world's privately held firearms even though we comprise only somewhere around 4.5% of the world's total population. No other nation even comes close to being as heavily armed as the United States (at least in terms of private firearms ownership). For the last few years, I believe we've also been buying something like half of all the guns available for private sale worldwide.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:21 pm

I assume all the stats on gun ownership don't account for those people that own guns illegally, right?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Guinness on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:31 pm

The "drug war" is the biggest factor in the violet/gun crime rate in the U.S. Stories like Sandy Hook are used to sensationalize gun violence, but the "statistics" that are always trotted out in the wake of the Sandy Hooks and the Aurora, Colorados are to a significant degree based upon gang violence related to drug trafficking. There are almost NO "assault weapons" crimes committed by Americans not associated with drug trafficking. Just as it was the case during the progressive alcohol prohibition period, so it is true during this more recent progressive prohibitionist movement.

Very few people in the U.S. understand that other people actually owner their lives - most believe it is their business to fix everyone around them. So, not only will the drug war never end, but the endless incrimination of similar non-violent crimes will continue ceaselessly, while the very same people will demand the prohibition of the very natural, self-evident right of one human being - regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or any other "demographic category" - to protect him-/her-/itself from the violent inclinations of others.

“If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.”


--- Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:41 pm

this thread has gone to a weird place...
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby viva la ben on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:05 pm

The virtual panopticon is nearly complete
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:33 pm

All we need is a Nazis/Hitler reference, right?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:40 pm

ffemtreed wrote:If you want to compare crime, look at all violent crime instead of just gun crime. I have no doubt the U.S. has higher gun violence than the U.K, but overall violent crime is a lot lower in the U.S. than the U.K.

You are more likely to be knifed to death in the UK than you are to be shot in the US.

Something else that needs to be kept front-of-mind when discussing crime statistics in the UK is the completely wonky method they use to track crime data. If someone is mugged, but no one is ever arrested or charged, guess what? That crime didn't happen! It is magically wiped from the record. So there may be a report on file with the Metropolitan Police, the victim may have been beaten into a coma.... but no 'crime' has occurred until a defendant is charged. When the FBI tracks violent crime all reported instances make up the statistic.

Another thing to remember as well, is the very interesting correlation between the implementation of stricter gun laws and the subsequent skyrocketing rates of all other violent crimes, particularly in the UK and Australia. Of course, the smaller populations of countries like the UK and Australia can make comparisons of crime rates misleading.

MWB wrote:I assume all the stats on gun ownership don't account for those people that own guns illegally, right?

I don't even know how they could obtain reliable data on that.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Guinness on Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:32 am

tifosi77 wrote:Another thing to remember as well, is the very interesting correlation between the implementation of stricter gun laws and the subsequent skyrocketing rates of all other violent crimes, particularly in the UK and Australia.


It seems to me that the weapon of choice is less the issue than the reason for the initiation of violence in the first place. Would Trayvon Martin still be alive today if George Zimmerman pulled out a buck knife, rather than a pistol? Probably not.

I am surrounded by heavily armed people every day. Where I live, most people own multiple guns of varying types - pistols, shotguns, rifles and even a few "assault" weapons. People have them in their homes, in their cars... I've even seen them slung over the shoulders of people walking along the road. In this region, I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of murders involving firearms in probably the past 10 years. One or two domestics, and maybe one or two drug-related. Someone was beaten to death, if I recall correctly, however.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:22 am

MRandall25 wrote:All we need is a Nazis/Hitler reference, right?


If you let everyone own a gun, pretty soon they'll want to marry a goat.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:28 am

topshelf wrote:
Froggy wrote:Where are you getting that 88% number from? No way that's true. Are you sure you didn't misplace a decimal point?


Yeah, that was my bad. The correct number is between 40-50%. That stat was guns per capita in the U.S.

Grunthy wrote:yeah you cannot compare gun rates between the US and the UK.


Why not? Because it doesn't support your opinion?



No because the UK has very restrictive gun laws. They really shouldn't have any murders with guns.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:42 am

count2infinity wrote:Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?


absolutely. you can buy kits over the internet and at gun shows that show you how to do it. because the "kits" are often just instructions they are protected by the First Amendment. often with a little bit of filing down and drilling you can turn a semi-automatic weapon to fully automatic in about 30 minutes. most gun manufacturers know how easily their products can be converted but won't do anything about it because they'd have to re-tool the factory. even if they were to do this it would probably take people just a couple of days to get around what ever "improvements" the manufacturer made and they'd be right back where they were.
was it Cris Rock who said, "make the bullets really expensive and then we won't have this problem"? I like that idea. :pop:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:49 am

shoeshine boy wrote:
count2infinity wrote:Out of curiosity, can semi-automatic weapons be turned into fully automatic weapons with some sort of tinkering with the gun?


absolutely. you can buy kits over the internet and at gun shows that show you how to do it. because the "kits" are often just instructions they are protected by the First Amendment. often with a little bit of filing down and drilling you can turn a semi-automatic weapon to fully automatic in about 30 minutes. most gun manufacturers know how easily their products can be converted but won't do anything about it because they'd have to re-tool the factory. even if they were to do this it would probably take people just a couple of days to get around what ever "improvements" the manufacturer made and they'd be right back where they were.
was it Cris Rock who said, "make the bullets really expensive and then we won't have this problem"? I like that idea. :pop:



You are way over simplifying what needs to be done to convert to full auto and the skill level needed to do the extra milling, drilling and modifications to the receiver. Even a well trained professional gun smith can't accomplish the task on most firearms in 30 minutes. Most ordinary people don't posses the precision milling tools to be able to the work. We are talking thousandths of an inch accuracy. If you miss by a 100th the gun will just jam. That is just the milling part, a lot of receivers also need some fine point welding done as well. There is a lot of FALSE info out there about how to make guns, particularity AR-15's full auto. I laugh hard every time I hear someone say you just need to file down the firing pin, or grind down the dissconector on the trigger , or get a lightning link.

As for your comment about parts being available as kits at gun shows is very wrong as well. It is very very very illegal for anyone of possess these kits. the ATF doesn't play around with people who sell and distribute any sort of kits. If you need a reference just look up the ATF constructive possession cases. Which basically state if you have the parts to make a full auto gun then you are considered in possession of a full auto gun and better have the proper credentials to possess a full auto gun.
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