Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:58 pm

One thing has been made crystal clear in all of this....... I really miss the PDT..... :(

ExPatriatePen wrote:Police and courts ALWAYS error on the side of caution in domestic cases. The worst thing a judge can do is to turn the accused back on the street and have them do something to the plantiff. It's much safer, from the judges career standpoint, to put sanctions on the accused and let the facts come out during trial.

It's S.o.P. even if the judge thinks the story is complete BS.

Charging someone criminally is never a CYA. Putting a restraining order on them? Sure. Civil penalties? Yes, when and where appropriate. Even arresting someone and putting them in police custody for a time I'd go with as a commonplace precaution. But actually filing criminal charges, putting someone into the criminal justice system, is most definitely not something that's done just to be extra careful with the accused. Not just because of all the other machinery that swings into motion with a live criminal case, but because filing charges willy nilly exposes the jurisdiction in question to potential civil, and possibly even criminal, liability.

Just look at Zimmerman's own recent past. The police did not charge GZ with a crime in the Martin case, despite the police investigator saying that he didn't believe GZ's story. (Not a domestic violence case, for sure, but there was a death involved. I'd think that would shift the calculus of erring on the side of caution a bit.) And police did not file charges against GZ just two months ago when his wife called 911 alleging that he threatened her and punched her father in the face. Last month, he apparently stuck a pistol target with over a dozen - poorly grouped, it must be said - bullet holes in it to her parent's house.

At his arraignment hearing today, the prosecutor also asserted in court that the week before this incident GZ choked his girlfriend. (As possible justification for a much higher bail) GZ lied on the 911 call, saying the fight erupted over a dispute about how they were going to raise the child she was preggers with; except she isn't preggers. He also was not wholly forthcoming about the number and types of weapons he had in his possession in the house.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,446
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:03 pm

I just can't imagine someone like that using unjustifiable force against another person. :roll:
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 49,344
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:38 pm

tifosi77 wrote:One thing has been made crystal clear in all of this....... I really miss the PDT..... :(


As do I... So many things happening on the ACA front and no where to talk about them.

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Police and courts ALWAYS error on the side of caution in domestic cases. The worst thing a judge can do is to turn the accused back on the street and have them do something to the plantiff. It's much safer, from the judges career standpoint, to put sanctions on the accused and let the facts come out during trial.

It's S.o.P. even if the judge thinks the story is complete BS.

Charging someone criminally is never a CYA. Putting a restraining order on them? Sure. Civil penalties? Yes, when and where appropriate. Even arresting someone and putting them in police custody for a time I'd go with as a commonplace precaution.


That's what I was talking about.


tifosi77 wrote: But actually filing criminal charges, putting someone into the criminal justice system, is most definitely not something that's done just to be extra careful with the accused. Not just because of all the other machinery that swings into motion with a live criminal case, but because filing charges willy nilly exposes the jurisdiction in question to potential civil, and possibly even criminal, liability.


Effecting an arrest, holding the individual for arraignment and letting them out on a reasonable 9K bail, and imposing travel and firearm restrictions, is not going to subject that jurisdiction to "potential civil, and possibly even criminal, liability".

I dunno, maybe there are more cases of false impressionment than I realize for these issues, but what my ancedotal experiences have uncovered is that Judges are very retecint not to at least give the plantiff a hearing and temporary relief (restraining order, whatever) even on the most ridiculous accusation.

I know of one individual who could prove that they had badged in through their security system at work, had witnesses and CCTV footage, and couldn't possibly have done what they were accused of, and the detective processed them and let it be sorted out at trial.

Now there had just been a rash of domestic violence in that county, including a couple of deaths, so maybe the DA was taking no chances, I don't know.


tifosi77 wrote:Just look at Zimmerman's own recent past. The police did not charge GZ with a crime in the Martin case, despite the police investigator saying that he didn't believe GZ's story. (Not a domestic violence case, for sure, but there was a death involved. I'd think that would shift the calculus of erring on the side of caution a bit.)


I admit that I was surprised when the police originally decided not to persue.

tifosi77 wrote:And police did not file charges against GZ just two months ago when his wife called 911 alleging that he threatened her and punched her father in the face. Last month, he apparently stuck a pistol target with over a dozen - poorly grouped, it must be said - bullet holes in it to her parent's house.


News to me... I didn't know this happened... why didn't the father press charges? Do you have a link to the article?

tifosi77 wrote:At his arraignment hearing today, the prosecutor also asserted in court that the week before this incident GZ choked his girlfriend. (As possible justification for a much higher bail)


I saw that on the news. Was there a 911 call on that incident? Why not? Seems rather convienent.

tifosi77 wrote:GZ lied on the 911 call, saying the fight erupted over a dispute about how they were going to raise the child she was preggers with; except she isn't preggers.


GZ said that, but do you know that she didn't tell him that? He may have believed it and repeated it.
There is a lie there for certain, but we really don't know whose lie it is yet. (if we ever will)

tifosi77 wrote: He also was not wholly forthcoming about the number and types of weapons he had in his possession in the house.

Again, I hadn't heard this. This would probably be the damaging evidence so far at least as far as I'm personally concerned.

Do you have a link to this as well?

Thanks Tif... I guess I'm just VERY sensitive to this issue having been falsely accused myself.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:01 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote: But actually filing criminal charges, putting someone into the criminal justice system, is most definitely not something that's done just to be extra careful with the accused. Not just because of all the other machinery that swings into motion with a live criminal case, but because filing charges willy nilly exposes the jurisdiction in question to potential civil, and possibly even criminal, liability.


Effecting an arrest, holding the individual for arraignment and letting them out on a reasonable 9K bail, and imposing travel and firearm restrictions, is not going to subject that jurisdiction to "potential civil, and possibly even criminal, liability".

In asking for a public defender, GZ claimed to have less than $200 to his name (don't know how he made the $900 needed for bail) against debts of $2.5 million. What seems reasonable to you and me may not be reasonable for another defendant. And that means they stay in jail, in the custody of the state. What happens when someone finds out they are sharing a cell with George Zimmerman? What happens when GZ ends up dead? What happens when further investigation reveals the girlfriend is lying through her teeth?

Prosecutors have a huge degree of latitude and discretion in filing charges, but they rarely exercise it. If the cops say a charge is warranted, far more often than not the charges will be filed. And the police generally have quite a bit of free reign in how they operated, in terms of limited liability exposure for exercising their powers of arrest.

My exceptionally limited experience is with federal law enforcement, maybe their practices are different that state and local authorities. But I just can't imagine a police agency and prosecutor's office wanting to subject itself to the rigors of a criminal trial and investigation 'just cos'.

George Zimmerman charged for allegedly pointing gun at girlfriend in Florida: report
That's a story about the current situation, but it also contains links to stories about the other events. (I don't know anything about the Daily News as a credible source, that's just the first result that came up in the Google search) Charges were not pressed after the September incident because the police determined that the evidence did not support such an action.

Regarding the choking incident, if it happened there's no reason to be suspicious about the lack of a 911 call; domestic violence cases rarely result in a call to authorities the first time there's an incident. Or even the first several times there's an incident; sometimes there are months or even years of questionable decision making before picking up a phone to call the cops. That's just how it is.

Regarding the guns, it wasn't so much that the purposely withheld information or anything. But on the 911 call he's asked if he has guns in the house and his first response is that she has guns in the house, in addition to his firearms, and then mentions that he didn't display any firearms. I'm not sure how much of the girlfriend's 911 call he could overhear from inside the house, but I do think it's interesting to note that he was eager to volunteer that he didn't 'display' any firearms. (Which is somewhat of a loaded term in gun legislation)
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,446
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:44 pm

I really hope Mr. Zimmerman is getting (or will get) some good therapy. Taking the life of another human being can be a traumatic event for anyone, and having that turn in murder charges compounds the trauma. Police officers, for example, are often required to go through counseling even for non-fatal shootings, let alone fatal ones. Zimmerman lost his job, had to move, went broke, was the center of a nationally-covered show trial, and lost his marriage. I hope he is getting some help.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,454
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:40 pm

"What are you going to do? Shoot me?" - GZ's father in law

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1517724

Sounds like there's a lot of disfunction to go around.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:41 pm

That was his response to GZ saying “Step closer, step closer", which is not something a responsibly armed citizen says in a conflict. (Whether his firearm is in his car or on his belt) Altho, saying that comment to GZ does not really sound out of bounds to me. Not sure how that's representative of 'dysfunction'.

One interesting thing that I learned in all of this is that his wife was only able to serve him with the divorce paperwork when he spent the night in jail. He had essentially been hiding from her for two months. (I thought the divorce had already been processed)
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,446
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:22 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:"What are you going to do? Shoot me?" - GZ's father in law

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1517724

Sounds like there's a lot of disfunction to go around.


every small thing you can find to exonerate this jerkoff. why?

wait...i'm seeing the future...

Spoiler:
EPP wrote: "who said i'm trying to exonerate him?"
Kaizer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,432
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Crazy Town

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:49 pm

Kaizer wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:"What are you going to do? Shoot me?" - GZ's father in law

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1517724

Sounds like there's a lot of disfunction to go around.


every small thing you can find to exonerate this jerkoff. why?

wait...i'm seeing the future...

Spoiler:
EPP wrote: "who said i'm trying to exonerate him?"

:face:

Hey Kaiser, I certainly understand the way it looks.

You know my politics, I'm not the type to be sticking up for someone like this normally.

If you've read my posts though, I've shared that I was once falsely accused and the experience was horrific. I know what it's like to sit in a court room and have a jury deciding your fate.
I always thought that if I did the right thing I would never be in that position. I couldn't believe it. Fortunately for me she lost her cool in front of the judge and started saying really crazy things.
But the lesson, for me anyway, was that innocent people often get caught up in things. Especially when it comes to domestic situations.

So, I get that GZ looks guilty and unbalanced. But his choice of women is not very good either. In fact his ex-wife was on Katy Couric today.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:53 pm

Do you have :face: mapped to the F1 key? :wink:
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 49,344
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:56 pm

columbia wrote:Do you have :face: mapped to the F1 key? :wink:

Only when someone says something that deserves it. :pop:
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:17 pm

I must be missing something, because I'm still not seeing how the women have any culpability at all in any of these instances, or how they are somehow dysfunctional. Perhaps this second woman might have her judgment questioned, since they started shacking up once her high school friend George became "George Zimmerman, 30, was acquitted in July of all charges in the shooting of Trayvon Martin," as the final paragraph of almost every news story about him now reads.

Altho..... TMZ is now reporting that the chick totally lied and set him up, faking that she was preggers to get him to stick around. He offered to set up a child support arrangement, but she freaked out when he started packing.

This may sound goofy, but I know people who have worked at TMZ. And while they are in the rumor business they are not in the libel business. They tend to do a pretty thorough job vetting their sources. The scenario laid out in that report doesn't pass the logic test - I will keep my boyfriend around by filing felony charges against him! - crazy people tend to not act logically.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,446
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:07 am

I'm still waiting for the "Good deed extinguishes racial questions" thread
Pavel Bure
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,453
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: http://freebitco.in/?r=770437 BITCOINS get them

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:19 am

tifosi77 wrote: crazy people tend to not act logically.

Especially in domestic disturbance situations.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:10 am

whatever you were accused of means nothing to me. I'm sure you weren't on national news everyday after killing someone, then pressing your luck after aquittal like some serial criminal wanting to be caught. that doesn't explain why you keep posting scraps about the people around him as if it makes GZ somehow look like less of an ******* maniac.
Kaizer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,432
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Crazy Town

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:51 am

Kaizer wrote:whatever you were accused of means nothing to me.


OK, well I'm glad we got that straight.

Kaizer wrote:I'm sure you weren't on national news everyday after killing someone,


I don't get what you're getting at here. GZ didn't seek the media out. They sought him out.

Unlike his ex-wife, who, as recently as yesterday, was giving interviews to Katie Couric.


Kaizer wrote: then pressing your luck after aquittal like some serial criminal wanting to be caught.


Because of two traffic stops for driving a few miles over the posted limit? Only one of which involved a speeding ticket?

Kaizer wrote:that doesn't explain why you keep posting scraps about the people around him as if it makes GZ somehow look like less of an ******* maniac.


There's a certain pitchfork and torch mentality to peoples opinions of GZ.

I get that in today's "reality TV" environment there's a certain desire to see things through a very binary hero/villian lens.

My experience is that it's a bit more nuanced than that.

I'm not saying that GZ is an angel by any measure, but I don't agree with the opinion that he's second coming of OJ either.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:54 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:I don't agree with the opinion that he's second coming of OJ either.


OJ is black... GZ is white (according to the national media). Your point is invalid.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,975
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:03 pm
Location: #isitoctoberyet??? Lololololololol

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:56 am

traffic stops? i'm talking about threatening people with firearms more than once since he got off, and im not saying he went looking for media, he was finally out of camera range, and could have laid low, but instead was arrested twice.
Kaizer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,432
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Crazy Town

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:02 am

count2infinity wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I don't agree with the opinion that he's second coming of OJ either.


OJ is black... GZ is white (according to the national media). Your point is invalid.


What in the world does that have to do with anything? Does color make a difference?

OJ sought out his ex-wife and her boyfriend and killed them in a premeditated fashion. GZ, at worst, is guilty of manslaughter.

Unless you're saying color makes a difference as to the standards of behavior one is held accountable to.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:04 am

I was kidding... lol.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,975
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:03 pm
Location: #isitoctoberyet??? Lololololololol

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:08 am

count2infinity wrote:I was kidding... lol.

Doh!!!

:face:

^^^^ <<<====---- Directed at myself Columbia :)
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:08 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:Unless you're saying color makes a difference as to the standards of behavior one is held accountable to.


It does; economic status too.

Take a look at the number of "urban" people of color in jail for drugs, versus drug users from the suburbs.
And we all know about the sentencing disparities between cocaine (white people) and crack (black people) from years ago.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 49,344
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Juice on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:21 am

At one point or another, we all succumb to it. Like flies to a bug-zapper.
Juice
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,805
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: beyondauction [16:54:33] you are scammer

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:35 am

Kaizer wrote:traffic stops? i'm talking about threatening people with firearms more than once since he got off, and im not saying he went looking for media, he was finally out of camera range, and could have laid low, but instead was arrested twice.


So, at this point we know for certain that GZ was guilty of speeding. The other allegations are just that at this point. Allegations.

One of which was made by his son to be ex-wife, who's can't seem to get enough of the media attention. The other of which was brought against him by his new ex-gf who, by Tif's TMZ report, well... let's quote Tif's own post:

Tifosi77 wrote:TMZ is now reporting that the chick totally lied and set him up, faking that she was preggers to get him to stick around. He offered to set up a child support arrangement, but she freaked out when he started packing.

This may sound goofy, but I know people who have worked at TMZ. And while they are in the rumor business they are not in the libel business. They tend to do a pretty thorough job vetting their sources. The scenario laid out in that report doesn't pass the logic test - I will keep my boyfriend around by filing felony charges against him! - crazy people tend to not act logically.


My ex knew that I owned no guns, that I hadn't touched, let alone fired one since I'd been in the service 30 years before, I'd shown no interest in firearms, I hadn't even mentioned firearms during the time we were together, yet she still made firearms a concern in her complaint.

I'm kind of happy to hear you believe the allegations arising from domestic break ups. It probably means that you havn't ben through one yourself.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:03 pm

columbia wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Unless you're saying color makes a difference as to the standards of behavior one is held accountable to.


It does; economic status too.



Economic status, yes. It only stands to reason that the better attorney you can afford the better outcome you can expect.


columbia wrote:Take a look at the number of "urban" people of color in jail for drugs, versus drug users from the suburbs.


Your example isn't apples to apples. (although an apples to apples may show the same results).

You'd have to compare people in the same jurisdiction, with the same economic status, accused to the same offense, to determine what your proposing. Comparing "urban people of color" to "suburban caucasians" is not a valid comparison, particulary given the point you made earlier about economic status.

Now C2I said he was joking... but his point (if he'd been serious) could only be interpreted that "people of color" were held to a lower standard than caucasians not the other way around as you're asserting.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Humperdink, OutofFoil and 7 guests


e-mail