Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:13 pm

He did call the police. I'm just saying, that IMO, Trayvon Martin was misrepresented 50x more than George Zimmerman was, to feed a certain narrative.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:15 pm

Although knowing what we know now about NSA, maybe neighborhood watch has more surveillance techniques than we know about. Maybe Zimmerman got a quick pic of Martin's face, ran a facial recognition program, came across the pic of him holding a gun, and figured he had probable cause to confront him and bring him in for questioning.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Geezer on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:16 am

This might belong in the political thread because my point involves our justice system in general not just this particular case. The jury picking system where both sides try to get juries of certain races, gender, age , etc should be avoided. A blind selection process would be more reasonable and would get rid of jury stacking experts. Lawyers and prosecutors would submit questions to a judge who would have prospective jurors answer them. Both sides would get written answers and would not be allowed to see the jury pool to keep lawyers from knowing age, race,sex etc of potential jurrors. They would not be allowed to hear the answers so that they couldn't guess those same characteristics. This would make the process cheaper ,quicker and arguably fairer. It should eliminate complaints about the jury make up since they'd be selected more based on answering questions instead of birth-related criteria.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:00 am

It's a rainy night in a neighborhood where there has been a recent uptick in break in robberies. Trayvon is darting in and out through yards.
If he's confronted by George Zimmerman in a "hey what are you doing here?", I don't think that's enough for Trayvon to attack him (which is what I think happened).

In any case, this is all this "case" is about
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:10 am

A few reasons why cracker doesn’t compare to the N-word
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... days-opeds
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby malkinshair on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:06 pm

columbia wrote:A few reasons why cracker doesn’t compare to the N-word
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... days-opeds


What a ridiculous article. Of course the n word is more offensive than cracker. Who was trying to say it wasn't? But using that logic to dismiss 'cracker' as a racially charged description of a person...come on :roll: . Martin was using 'cracker' as an identifier that absolutely had racial overtones to not only him, but the person he was talking to. This article describes the very definition of a double standard...and it's pathetic.

It's okay to admit that Martin probably viewed Zimmerman through a somewhat biased lens. In other words, if Zimmerman had been black, Martin probably isn't immediately defensive about being followed.

Race unfortunately played some part in the tragedy that happened, but IMO it played a part on both sides. To try and justify the use of 'creepy a** cracker' as 'okay' by comparing it to the n word is just flat ignorant. We always bring up context when discussing the use of offensive language, right? Well, do you believe given Martin's context that he was making a racially derogatory statement? How could you not. It doesn't make him a 'racist', but it does show his state of mind before turning to face his 'follower'.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:38 pm

columbia wrote:A few reasons why cracker doesn’t compare to the N-word
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... days-opeds

Why can't bleeding hearts admit that *both* are offensive and quit trying to make a contest out of it?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:54 pm

Kathleen Parker is a bleeding heart?

The fact there is no contest is the point. That anyone would try to compare the two is what is absurd.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby malkinshair on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:11 pm

columbia wrote:Kathleen Parker is a bleeding heart?

The fact there is no contest is the point. That anyone would try to compare the two is what is absurd.


Why are you trying to justify the use of racially charged language by saying that there is worse racially charged language that exists? It's like trying to argue that you shouldn't have received the speeding ticket because at least you weren't drunk while driving.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby GaryRissling on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:14 pm

Zimmerman had a bullit chambered and went looking for a confrontation against the advice of the 911 dispatcher. I think he is more culpable for the tragedy that ensued, but I don't see it rising to the level of a murder conviction. He'll be acquitted, get sued for wrongful death and lose that suit.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Eismann on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:32 pm

columbia wrote:A few reasons why cracker doesn’t compare to the N-word
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... days-opeds


Laughably misguided.

They're both terms used to belittle someone based on their race, today and right now. The intent is the same.

The level the supposed learned go to obfuscate the simple and obvious is both expected and injurious to any progress in racial harmony.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby TheHammer24 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:51 pm

Eismann wrote:
columbia wrote:A few reasons why cracker doesn’t compare to the N-word
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... days-opeds


Laughably misguided.

They're both terms used to belittle someone based on their race, today and right now. The intent is the same.

The level the supposed learned go to obfuscate the simple and obvious is both expected and injurious to any progress in racial harmony.

I think it's relevant that one group has been historically discriminated against and still is, while the other has not. The costs impose by perpetuating black discrimination are far greater than "white discrimination."
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby bhaw on Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:21 pm

The fact that I personally would never use the n-word to belittle someone gives me the right to be as offended as I want if someone uses cracker to belittle me. Much in the same way an African American who never uses the word honky or cracker to belittle a white person has every right to be offended by the n-word.

On the flip side, if I'm out there calling people n-words, I forfeit my right to be offended by someone calling me a cracker just like a black person who goes around calling white people crackers forfeits his right to be offended by the n-word. Of course the people who tend to use those words are usually the ones who use it in one direction and get uber-offended when it goes the other way.

That is my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with macro levels where black people or white people as a whole have more of a right to be offended by one or the other. If I'm not using it to belittle someone, I can absolutely be as offended as I want if someone uses it to belittle me, regardless of history.

Constantly bringing up the past and using that as a basis to justify things is why racism is still so touchy. I'm Jewish. I don't go out of my way to avoid or nitpick at what Germans say. You're either a good person or a doosh. Nationality and race don't inherently cause someone to be one or the other.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:13 pm

i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that no one that is a regular poster on this board is black. I just don't think it's something that as a white dude, i can really relate to AT ALL.

bhaw, you bring up an interesting parallel with Judaism, but then again, you aren't living in Germany, surrounded by people who sometimes still act kind of Nazi-ish.

Black people are CONSTANTLY confronted with both the spectre and the reality of racism spanning their entire history in this country. to say that the N-word is "just a word" shows a lack of understanding and empathy on what that word means now, and what it meant when it was used 200-300 years ago.

It's really easy, at least intellectually, to say that words by themselves aren't hurtful, or whatever... But that's just not the reality of the situation.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:42 pm

Black Americans have done a LOT to trivialize the N word in the last 20 years. I honestly wonder how blacks in their 60s and 70s feel about the way "n***a" has become perfectly acceptable language in the black community.

And obviously I understand white people can't say it, but it just causes me to laugh a bit when there is so much outrage over a word that the victimized group is most responsible for promoting the use of. Of course I would never use it, but don't pretend it's a big deal when <gasp> a white person uses that word. If you are under the age of 35 or so, you've likely never been "oppressed", with exceptions throughout the South.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:45 pm

To add, I also don't buy that the new generation of black Americans is haunted by the "specter of slavery". It's been 150 years since the Civil War, and they are as far disconnected from it as we are.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:45 pm

The context in which a black person uses the word as compared to a white person is, 99% of the time, completely different. That matters.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:51 pm

MWB wrote:The context in which a black person uses the word as compared to a white person is, 99% of the time, completely different. That matters.

I
That's not my point. Obviously the context is different, and that does matter, but I truly believe the common usage of it so in rap, conversation, and elsewhere perpetuates the notion that the word is acceptable... for anyone to use.

Killing the N word has to start in the black community first.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby malkinshair on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:56 pm

MWB wrote:The context in which a black person uses the word as compared to a white person is, 99% of the time, completely different. That matters.


It might, but it shouldn't.

Context is a red herring. If I'm rapping with Jay-Z to Can I Get A..., I'm by definition using the word contextually...but I don't think it'd go over too well in certain company.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:25 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Black Americans have done a LOT to trivialize the N word in the last 20 years. I honestly wonder how blacks in their 60s and 70s feel about the way "n***a" has become perfectly acceptable language in the black community.

And obviously I understand white people can't say it, but it just causes me to laugh a bit when there is so much outrage over a word that the victimized group is most responsible for promoting the use of. Of course I would never use it, but don't pretend it's a big deal when <gasp> a white person uses that word. If you are under the age of 35 or so, you've likely never been "oppressed", with exceptions throughout the South.

Excellent point Shaf.

See also: opinions of Bill Cosby on this issue
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Eismann on Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:38 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Eismann wrote:
columbia wrote:A few reasons why cracker doesn’t compare to the N-word
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... days-opeds


Laughably misguided.

They're both terms used to belittle someone based on their race, today and right now. The intent is the same.

The level the supposed learned go to obfuscate the simple and obvious is both expected and injurious to any progress in racial harmony.

I think it's relevant that one group has been historically discriminated against and still is, while the other has not. The costs impose by perpetuating black discrimination are far greater than "white discrimination."


I'd say factual, but not relevant, if the ultimate goal is to be at peace in harmony. I think that's what our society aspires to, no? Encouraging one group to perpetuate this kind of hate term when it should be universally discouraged just reinforces the fact that it's being clung to as a source of power and intimidation.

The plantation door's been open for a long time. All this continuing - and growing - use of the term by mostly stupid people does nothing but pull them back.

I put no more stock in a loser from the hood or on a rap album spouting nword as a badge of his race that I do when skinheads talk about how great their white life is. They're all idiots and should be stigmatized, not glorified.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:57 pm

Not even related to offensiveness, but can you imagine if a white person was up on the witness stand describing a person as a "crazy a** n****" or whatever she used to describe Zimmerman (something along the lines of _____ a** cracker)?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby GaryRissling on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:45 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Black Americans have done a LOT to trivialize the N word in the last 20 years. I honestly wonder how blacks in their 60s and 70s feel about the way "n***a" has become perfectly acceptable language in the black community.


Black people in their 60's and 70's probably consider the other black people who use the word as ignorant. Ignorant people shouldn't be held up as an example of how an entire race has trivialized the word.

And obviously I understand white people can't say it, but it just causes me to laugh a bit when there is so much outrage over a word that the victimized group is most responsible for promoting the use of. Of course I would never use it, but don't pretend it's a big deal when <gasp> a white person uses that word. If you are under the age of 35 or so, you've likely never been "oppressed", with exceptions throughout the South


Yeah, you've heard of the war on drugs, right? Compound that with our locked public education system, and I would say that a significant number black people under the age of 35 have been impacted by racial profiling (esp as it pertains to drugs), inequities in our justice system, and the disadvantaged schools they're locked into.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:06 am

bhaw wrote:The fact that I personally would never use the n-word to belittle someone gives me the right to be as offended as I want if someone uses cracker to belittle me. Much in the same way an African American who never uses the word honky or cracker to belittle a white person has every right to be offended by the n-word.

On the flip side, if I'm out there calling people n-words, I forfeit my right to be offended by someone calling me a cracker just like a black person who goes around calling white people crackers forfeits his right to be offended by the n-word. Of course the people who tend to use those words are usually the ones who use it in one direction and get uber-offended when it goes the other way.

That is my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with macro levels where black people or white people as a whole have more of a right to be offended by one or the other. If I'm not using it to belittle someone, I can absolutely be as offended as I want if someone uses it to belittle me, regardless of history.

Constantly bringing up the past and using that as a basis to justify things is why racism is still so touchy. I'm Jewish. I don't go out of my way to avoid or nitpick at what Germans say. You're either a good person or a doosh. Nationality and race don't inherently cause someone to be one or the other.


So if someone drops the K word to you, you think that's the equivalent of you calling someone whatever the worst derogatory word towards Christians is?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:33 am

shmenguin wrote:
bhaw wrote:The fact that I personally would never use the n-word to belittle someone gives me the right to be as offended as I want if someone uses cracker to belittle me. Much in the same way an African American who never uses the word honky or cracker to belittle a white person has every right to be offended by the n-word.

On the flip side, if I'm out there calling people n-words, I forfeit my right to be offended by someone calling me a cracker just like a black person who goes around calling white people crackers forfeits his right to be offended by the n-word. Of course the people who tend to use those words are usually the ones who use it in one direction and get uber-offended when it goes the other way.

That is my opinion. I don't think it has anything to do with macro levels where black people or white people as a whole have more of a right to be offended by one or the other. If I'm not using it to belittle someone, I can absolutely be as offended as I want if someone uses it to belittle me, regardless of history.

Constantly bringing up the past and using that as a basis to justify things is why racism is still so touchy. I'm Jewish. I don't go out of my way to avoid or nitpick at what Germans say. You're either a good person or a doosh. Nationality and race don't inherently cause someone to be one or the other.


So if someone drops the K word to you, you think that's the equivalent of you calling someone whatever the worst derogatory word towards Christians is?


That's not what I said. I said they lose their right to get mad if someone says it to them. I'm certainly not in the practice of trading slurs with people. It doesn't justify me saying it, it removes their right to be pissed if someone uses it on them. Small difference but relevant based on your question.

EDIT: Re-reading... I don't understand your question now that I see it again.
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