Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:13 pm

DelPen wrote:So the prosecution is trying to get Murder 3, felony murder, added to the charges because they say it was felony child abuse against Martin.

Are you **** kidding me?


I just got to work and saw the judge say that they couldn't do that. I swear she was trying not to laugh right in the D.A.'s face. talk about a reach!
did the D.A. contend that the fight was the abuse or the shooting itself? if I'm not mistaken TM's only wound was the gunshot, correct?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:44 pm

DelPen wrote:Serious question, does anyone not see ANYreasonable doubt that this was self defense by Zimmerman?

Sorry, I don't think you get to initiate a confrontation with someone (knowing you are armed and on the phone with police) and then get to claim self defense when you end up having your ass kicked and you kill the person you were tailing. That may not be the letter of the law, but it's completely ridiculous to me that he may suffer no criminal sanction as a result of his actions. Murder 2? No. Manslaughter? Absolutely.

DelPen wrote:Where stand your ground comes into play, many states require that if you can leave a situation you MUST flee if possible UNLESS doing so would increase your chance of harm unless you are in your home, car or some other places. FL SYG does not require you attempt to leave if possible. It's all moot anyways since it's impossible to escape when mounted and being pummeled.

Agree or disagree with the law but the state has failed on a colossal to prove any guilt beyond a reasonable doubt that this could not have been self defense just as Zimmerman has said repeatedly and a few witnesses have corroborated to some degree. The prosecution has actually come closer to proving 100% innocence.

The stand-your-ground defense is not being used by GZ, so any discussion of it is moot. They had the opportunity pre-trial to invoke SYG, which would have required Zimmerman to testify in a special hearing. The defense waived that. This is a straight self defense claim. They may yet attempt to invoke that defense, but it's unlikely since GZ stated yesterday he wouldn't be testifying. (Which, considering GZ pursued TM while on the phone with police, would be a dubious claim at best.)

Besides, most of the lawmakers behind the legislation publicly stated that GZs actions leading up to the confrontation and shooting almost by definition exclude him from invoking that as a defense. Not that that has any weight at trial, but if people who wrote the law say "You don't qualify for its protection"..... probably a good idea to not go down that path.

DelPen wrote:It was, extensively, and the police looked at all the evidence and determined that no charges would need to be filed.

They didn't look at it extensively at all, which is the root of the problem. The police on scene the night of the shooting didn't even canvass the neighborhood in an effort to identify TM, and (as was discussed a couple pages ago) they didn't even photograph GZ's wounds. When police work is as bungled as that, it hurts both sides of the case because both inculpatory and exculpatory evidence might go uncovered.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:13 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Sorry, I don't think you get to initiate a confrontation with someone


what do you define as "initiate a confrontation". Are you speaking about a physical confrontation or verbal confrontation? I think the biggest issue in this case is that between tailing Martin and the gunshot, Zimmerman is the only person that knows exactly what happened. Is it possible that Martin threw the first punch? Is it possible that Martin turned and attacked Zimmerman? Is it possible that Zimmerman only pulled his gun at the point where he felt that his life was in danger? I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent. He obviously killed a person, but I would say that there is a bit of doubt that the prosecution has not been able to clear up (at least with me personally) as far as what happened leading up to and during the confrontation.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:13 pm

So you "feel" he should be punished even though the prosecution did not prove a crime was committed?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:15 pm

count2infinity wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Sorry, I don't think you get to initiate a confrontation with someone


what do you define as "initiate a confrontation". Are you speaking about a physical confrontation or verbal confrontation? I think the biggest issue in this case is that between tailing Martin and the gunshot, Zimmerman is the only person that knows exactly what happened. Is it possible that Martin threw the first punch? Is it possible that Martin turned and attacked Zimmerman? Is it possible that Zimmerman only pulled his gun at the point where he felt that his life was in danger? I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent. He obviously killed a person, but I would say that there is a bit of doubt that the prosecution has not been able to clear up (at least with me personally) as far as what happened leading up to and during the confrontation.

The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

DelPen wrote:So you "feel" he should be punished even though the prosecution did not prove a crime was committed?

No, I "feel" it would be outrageous if he walks.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:17 pm

I was under the impression that there was no verdict yet. Did I miss something?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:18 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Sorry, I don't think you get to initiate a confrontation with someone


what do you define as "initiate a confrontation". Are you speaking about a physical confrontation or verbal confrontation? I think the biggest issue in this case is that between tailing Martin and the gunshot, Zimmerman is the only person that knows exactly what happened. Is it possible that Martin threw the first punch? Is it possible that Martin turned and attacked Zimmerman? Is it possible that Zimmerman only pulled his gun at the point where he felt that his life was in danger? I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent. He obviously killed a person, but I would say that there is a bit of doubt that the prosecution has not been able to clear up (at least with me personally) as far as what happened leading up to and during the confrontation.

The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.


May the record show that there is no law against seeing something suspicious and following to see what's going on. Keep in mind here, I am not arguing that Zimmerman should not be punished for his moronic actions, I'm just saying that the prosecution has not done enough to get a guilty verdict, IMO.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:18 pm

tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

Exactly how I feel. If thats their defense, the case should have just ended before it started. BS.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:53 pm

And I'm still having a really hard time figuring out how GZ drew his gun from his holster while fending off TM with his draw hand and with TMs legs blocking access, or how GZ got TM's arms spread out but the body was found with the arms tucked up under his chest.

The account just doesn't add up. There hasn't been any evidence presented along this line, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that GZ either had the gun drawn or was moving to draw before the physical altercation broke out. In his video statement to police he indicates that at the point TM asks if he had a problem, GZ reached for his cell phone. I don't have a hard time believing that at this point he was actually going for his firearm. That's nothing but wild speculation on my part, and if I were on the jury I wouldn't rely on that in terms of deliberation. But it's the only reconstruction that seems to fit.

I just can't figure how he could have gotten to the gun if the fight was going on as he states and eyewitness testimony more or less corroborates.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:57 pm

tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

You are absolutely entitled to believe that, but I do not believe that is an accurate statement of the law.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:20 pm

Shyster wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

You are absolutely entitled to believe that, but I do not believe that is an accurate statement of the law.

That's the thing. Common sense and the law don't necessarily always match up with one another. I feel as though Zimmerman is certainly to blame for Martin's death. Now whether that is 100% responsible, 50% responsible, or 10% responsible... who knows other than Zimmerman himself. The fact of the matter is though, by the letter of the law, I don't see this as a guilty murder verdict.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:31 pm

tifosi77 wrote:And I'm still having a really hard time figuring out how GZ drew his gun from his holster while fending off TM with his draw hand and with TMs legs blocking access, or how GZ got TM's arms spread out but the body was found with the arms tucked up under his chest.

The account just doesn't add up. There hasn't been any evidence presented along this line, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that GZ either had the gun drawn or was moving to draw before the physical altercation broke out. In his video statement to police he indicates that at the point TM asks if he had a problem, GZ reached for his cell phone. I don't have a hard time believing that at this point he was actually going for his firearm. That's nothing but wild speculation on my part, and if I were on the jury I wouldn't rely on that in terms of deliberation. But it's the only reconstruction that seems to fit.

I just can't figure how he could have gotten to the gun if the fight was going on as he states and eyewitness testimony more or less corroborates.


So reasonable doubt?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby stinky on Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:55 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

Exactly how I feel. If thats their defense, the case should have just ended before it started. BS.


I actually find this line of thinking a little odd, to be honest. Now I don’t know if Zimmerman is BSing out of the wazoo or not, but if we take his story at face value, how is following a suspicious guy in your neighborhood and asking him what his case is, make Zimmerman responsible for his death in any way, IF (could be a big if) TM flat out jumps him?

Many years ago we had multiple break ins at work, I worked the night shift and saw two people drive around the building, get out of thier car, and started walking around the building peaking in windows.. .I followed them a short time, and finally asked them If I could help them, are they lost? (I was actually polite) They were actually looking for a buddy and it worked out just fine, but if they started jumping me and beating me, and I had to kill them, I would have been responsible?

Isnt it a somewhat a free country and within my rights to protect my house, neighborhood, workplace, by simply inquiring what an individual is doing? And in many cases, isn’t it within the persons being asks rights to go tell me to pound salt and keep walking? However, I don’t think the person has a right to start beating me to a pulp because I asked what was up?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:37 pm

Shyster wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

You are absolutely entitled to believe that, but I do not believe that is an accurate statement of the law.

The legislators who drafted, debated, and passed the bill and the governor who signed it into law agree with my interpretation.

DelPen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:And I'm still having a really hard time figuring out how GZ drew his gun from his holster while fending off TM with his draw hand and with TMs legs blocking access, or how GZ got TM's arms spread out but the body was found with the arms tucked up under his chest.

The account just doesn't add up. There hasn't been any evidence presented along this line, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that GZ either had the gun drawn or was moving to draw before the physical altercation broke out. In his video statement to police he indicates that at the point TM asks if he had a problem, GZ reached for his cell phone. I don't have a hard time believing that at this point he was actually going for his firearm. That's nothing but wild speculation on my part, and if I were on the jury I wouldn't rely on that in terms of deliberation. But it's the only reconstruction that seems to fit.

I just can't figure how he could have gotten to the gun if the fight was going on as he states and eyewitness testimony more or less corroborates.


So reasonable doubt?

About the defendant's story? Yes.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:39 pm

I'm officially predicting a manslaughter conviction.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:19 pm

columbia wrote:I'm officially predicting a manslaughter conviction.


Agreed.

I think this case also speaks to why it shouldn't be so easy to get a carry permit. Without the gun on his hip he most likely wouldn't have been playing Dirty Harry in the dark.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:42 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Shyster wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

You are absolutely entitled to believe that, but I do not believe that is an accurate statement of the law.

The legislators who drafted, debated, and passed the bill and the governor who signed it into law agree with my interpretation.

The Florida judiciary does not. See my earlier posts here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57973&start=275#p2061728
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57973&start=50#p2056148

In order to lose the ability to claim self-defense due to provoking the incident in question, the provocation must represent either the use of force or the threat of force. And even someone who did provoke an incident can still claim self-defense if he: (1) reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm; and (2) has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than resorting to force. So even if you pick a fight with someone, that doesn't mean you are obliged to lie there and take it as they beat you to death. If you have no other means to get away (and Zimmerman's defense certainly argues he did not because he was flat on his back with Martin on top of him), then you can resort to deadly force to defend yourself.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:31 pm

stinky wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.

Exactly how I feel. If thats their defense, the case should have just ended before it started. BS.


I actually find this line of thinking a little odd, to be honest. Now I don’t know if Zimmerman is BSing out of the wazoo or not, but if we take his story at face value, how is following a suspicious guy in your neighborhood and asking him what his case is, make Zimmerman responsible for his death in any way, IF (could be a big if) TM flat out jumps him?

Many years ago we had multiple break ins at work, I worked the night shift and saw two people drive around the building, get out of thier car, and started walking around the building peaking in windows.. .I followed them a short time, and finally asked them If I could help them, are they lost? (I was actually polite) They were actually looking for a buddy and it worked out just fine, but if they started jumping me and beating me, and I had to kill them, I would have been responsible?

Isnt it a somewhat a free country and within my rights to protect my house, neighborhood, workplace, by simply inquiring what an individual is doing? And in many cases, isn’t it within the persons being asks rights to go tell me to pound salt and keep walking? However, I don’t think the person has a right to start beating me to a pulp because I asked what was up?

The problem is that view of events only considers the perspective of GZ. Look at the totality of what was going on, and put yourself in TM's shoes. I think it's entirely reasonable to believe that TM viewed GZ as a potential threat. (Which he sort of said on the phone, from what I gather) This would especially be true if my earlier supposition were true - that GZ may have either already drawn, was preparing to draw, or flashed the gun. (Again, that's nothing but speculation on my part. There's no evidence or testimony that happened, but it's the only way I can reconstruct the incident in my head and get the physical evidence that does exist to match up.)

What it boils down to is the reasonable person standard. Could a reasonable person in GM's shoes be legitimately in fear of their life or grievous bodily injury, and does that fear warrant the use of disproportionately lethal force?

Or, put it this way..... for the sake of discussion, presume GZ was either not armed that night, or that the gun was never drawn. The confrontation played out in every other detail as revealed in court. (I am of the opinion that if GZ wasn't armed he never would have gotten out of his car, but that's beside the point.) The timeline shows that the police arrived fairly quickly after the shot was fired, so let's just say the fight went on for a minute before the police showed up. Would TM be able to make largely the same arguments about self defense that GZ has been making?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:46 pm

Yes, he could probably argue that. Both of them were idiots but it doesn't make one guilty of manslaughter or murder.

The wrongful death suit will be very interesting to see. That's when you can say this happened because he Zimmerman didn't stay in his car. But the criminal charges don't have any merit beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:11 pm

how about the reports that GZ stated he thought that TM was reaching for his firearm? Is that reasonable enough to grab for it as well and fire or is that not enough bodily harm to GZ while he's flat on his back with TM on top of him. Again, I'm not saying GZ is innocent, but you are certainly throwing around some wild speculation, tif. All that the jury can go on is the evidence that is presented.

I really think that legally this case will be dismissed, he will get sued by Martin's parents/family and lose that case and have to pay a good bit of money in that lawsuit.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:26 pm

If I were on this case, GZ was guilty as soon as he ignored the police dispatch and left his car.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:31 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:If I were on this case, GZ was guilty as soon as he ignored the police dispatch and left his car.

Guilty of what? Trespassing?

The Police dispatch didn't say "Don't do it" they said "we don't need you to be doing that"

There's a difference.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:52 pm

count2infinity wrote:how about the reports that GZ stated he thought that TM was reaching for his firearm? Is that reasonable enough to grab for it as well and fire or is that not enough bodily harm to GZ while he's flat on his back with TM on top of him. Again, I'm not saying GZ is innocent, but you are certainly throwing around some wild speculation, tif. All that the jury can go on is the evidence that is presented.

I really think that legally this case will be dismissed, he will get sued by Martin's parents/family and lose that case and have to pay a good bit of money in that lawsuit.

Oh, I freely admit I'm speculating and I wouldn't want that to come into the deliberations if I were on the jury. I'm just saying that I don't find GZs recounting of the interaction to be credible in the slightest. Taking GZs story at face value, I'm not sure how they could have ended up in the physical positions he said they were in and had his jacket ride up enough for TM to have seen the holstered pistol.

There has been testimony that corroborated some of his claims (TM was on top throwing punches), and refuted others (witness #13 in particular). I tend to think GZ was deceitful in his retelling of events with just enough detail as to give weight to his claim of self defense.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DudeMan2766 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:52 pm

Zimmerman is under no legal obligation to stop even if the dispatch ordered him too. They can't use that argument.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:57 pm

tifosi77 wrote:... I tend to think GZ was deceitful in his retelling of events with just enough detail ...


tif, can you provide examples of what you're referring too?

Thanks.
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