Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:59 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:If I were on this case, GZ was guilty as soon as he ignored the police dispatch and left his car.

Guilty of what? Trespassing?

The Police dispatch didn't say "Don't do it" they said "we don't need you to be doing that"

There's a difference.

There is a difference in between the two only in the choice of words. If you were on the phone with the 911 dispatcher and they said exactly what they said, would you heed that? Or would you think, "Well, they didn't expressly say 'don't follow the guy', so I guess I'll head off into the night to follow someone who I'm already suspicious of being a criminal."

And while I don't think it automatically makes him 'guilty' of a crime, the moment he stepped out of his car - armed and with the knowledge the police were en route - he changed the way these events should be interpreted, imo. Instead of passively following he went actively searching. To me, that's a very different argument and puts much more onus on him.

Of course, if he had stayed in the truck this would all likely be a moot discussion.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:11 pm

He had the right to follow anyone in his neighborhood who appeared suspicious. Are you forgetting the B&E's that the neighborhood suffered?

There's no law that says I can't follow you and watch you, even question you. There's no law that says that you have to answer my questions. However, there are laws that say you can't attack me and pound my head into the pavement for asking you 'what are you doing here?'
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:14 pm

I think we're getting into what is "right" and what are a person's "rights." Of course he has a right to disobey the police asking him to not follow, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:15 pm

MWB wrote:I think we're getting into what is "right" and what are a person's "rights." Of course he has a right to disobey the police asking him to not follow, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.


I don't think anyone here is arguing that GZ should have followed TM. If they are, well I don't know what to say. But what is being discussed is whether that puts him at fault for the altercation. The answer to that is only he knows. We can guess, but really he's the only one that knows.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:34 pm

count2infinity wrote:
MWB wrote:I think we're getting into what is "right" and what are a person's "rights." Of course he has a right to disobey the police asking him to not follow, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.


I don't think anyone here is arguing that GZ should have followed TM. If they are, well I don't know what to say. But what is being discussed is whether that puts him at fault for the altercation. The answer to that is only he knows. We can guess, but really he's the only one that knows.


To be fair C2I, I don't know what I'd do if there were multiple B&E's in my neighborhood. I'm not a "Mall Cop" kind of guy, but I think if I saw someone who looked suspicious to me, I might want to follow them to see what the hell they were up to. Now accousting them would be a different story, but if they accousted me? I have no problem with deadly force if i feel my life is in danger.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:38 pm

You'd see them run and try to chase them down?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:46 pm

When someone chooses to follow after a "suspect," he is basically playing mall cop, especially after the cops are notified. Putting your rights ahead of what common sense would say for most people.

I agree, c2i, GZ is the only one who knows if he is at fault.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:55 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:Zimmerman is under no legal obligation to stop even if the dispatch ordered him too. They can't use that argument.

They most certainly can use it to establish frame of mind and to paint GZ as a rouge. They can't charge with a specific crime for Failing to Adhere To The Wishes Of A Phone Operator, but it absolutely can be used as character evidence to support other charges.

ExPatriatePen wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:... I tend to think GZ was deceitful in his retelling of events with just enough detail ...


tif, can you provide examples of what you're referring too?

Thanks.

One witness testified that GZ was a pretty good student in the criminology class where they talked about self defense law and whatnot, that he had a pretty savvy understanding of the rules of the road, so to speak. And reading Zimmerman's written statement (which I believe was provided the night of the shooting) and watching the video of GZ telling the story of the incident to police investigators (which I believe was a day or two later, I forget exactly), there are a few nuggets that stand out as if.... tweaked slightly.

At not point during the minutes spent following TM from the car or after exiting does GZ make an effort to identify himself as a neighborhood watchman. (Something the police investigators noted, who believed the evidence supported a charge of manslaughter.)

GZ says in the written statement that TM circled his car once, but that nugget isn't in the video statement, nor does he mention that to the police operator.

GZ initially claimed he was struck 20 or 30 times. Which, considering the head wounds were mended with Band-aids seems.... incredulous.

He claims he got out of his car to check for a street sign... there are precisely three streets in this neighborhood, where he has lived for several years and been the 'neighborhood watch' officer, but he doesn't remember the street names? And the record of his prior 911 calls indicate that he had no problem at all remembering the street names on those occasions. Further, there are apparently no street signs anywhere near where GZ parked his truck to get on foot or where he walked (which is where the confrontation ultimately happened).

Following that last point, on the phone call GZ notes "Sh|t, he's running." Then the operator asks if he's following TM, to which he replies "Yeah". So the record shows the reason he got out of the car was to follow TM, not to look for a street sign.

The gap between the end of the phone call and the altercation, based on other 911 calls reporting the shooting, was probably a good minute and a half or so. Both GZ statements lead one to the inference that GZ hung up the phone, turned around, and there was TM asking if he had a problem.

The ME report indicated that both of TMs lungs were punctured by the single gunshot. Zimmerman's statement is that after he drew his gun and fired, TM said "You got me" (or words to that effect). I'm not really sure how effectively one could speak with two punctured lungs, and I don't recall this being raised during the trial, but my understanding is that there's no way to generate positive air pressure to expel air through the windpipe and across the vocal chords with two perf'd lungs. The air just circulates through the perforation(s) and in-and-out of the bullet hole; it's called a sucking chest wound. But it does open up a window of further speculation..... that TM saw the gun and was surrendering before the shot was fired.

So that's some of the things that bug me.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:25 pm

Why didn't Trayvon just go back to his dad's house? He had ample time to do that. Hell from the maps I can see, he may have actually gotten to his dad's house, then turned back around. There was no need for him to find and confront Zimmerman at all, at least other than to start a fight from what I can see.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:37 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:There was no need for Zimmerman to find and confront Martin at all, at least other than to start a fight from what I can see.


fyp?

Maybe, maybe not.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:40 pm

tifosi77 wrote:He claims he got out of his car to check for a street sign... there are precisely three streets in this neighborhood, where he has lived for several years and been the 'neighborhood watch' officer, but he doesn't remember the street names? And the record of his prior 911 calls indicate that he had no problem at all remembering the street names on those occasions. Further, there are apparently no street signs anywhere near where GZ parked his truck to get on foot or where he walked (which is where the confrontation ultimately happened).


Martin had a clear lane to his house, he chose not to go home and instead confront Zimmerman who had crossed to retreat view circle to gather the road name. Either Zimmerman is the slowest man alive who only covered 20 yards "chasing" or Travyon was not running very fast if a guy on a cell phone caught up to him.

At that point I have no doubt Trayvon attacked Zimmerman - which is assault. Everything else is inconsequential.

This whole thing is a political sham - ginned up racism. Those involved from our justice department to the Florida Gov. to the judge in this case should be ashamed of themselves.. and whatever happens with this verdict will be on their hands. When things like this are obviously politicized from the top layers of our government, the only thing that comes to mind is this.

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Malkamaniac on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:47 pm

Is this guy not released yet? They have it on at the office every day. It's a shame that it's been pushed on me so much I'm rooting for this guy to be released so we see some real action
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:50 pm

I'm still not sold on Trayvon being on top of him. Plus, those injuries to GZ's head were not consistent with slamming his head on the concrete. Maybe abrasions from sliding across.

Wow, Maria Clark just looks weird.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:51 pm

And let me add.

Martin gets out of the car at around 7:13 PM. (The Chase). He loses sight of Martin.

He then spends TWO MINUTES... TWO WHOLE MINUTES on the phone with the operator, talking about where he would meet the officer, He hangs up at 7:15.

Martin's father's house was 80 yards from Zimmerman's car. Martin had obviously bolted and lost zimmerman - in a direction toward his dad's house. 2 minutes... he has 2 minutes to get home, and obviously Zimmerman is no longer "chasing him" as evident by the discussion with the operator.

Why didn't he get there, why did Martin turn around and come back toward Zimmerman? If Zimmerman got back to his car, would Martin have not also found him eventually since I think it was pretty obvious based on those 2 minutes that since Martin did not go home - he obviously was coming back to confront Zimmerman.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:51 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:Why didn't Trayvon just go back to his dad's house? He had ample time to do that. Hell from the maps I can see, he may have actually gotten to his dad's house, then turned back around. There was no need for him to find and confront Zimmerman at all, at least other than to start a fight from what I can see.


Most likely because someone was following him and he was worried that he was about to be "jumped".
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:52 pm

Factorial wrote:I'm still not sold on Trayvon being on top of him. Plus, those injuries to GZ's head were not consistent with slamming his head on the concrete. Maybe abrasions from sliding across.

Wow, Maria Clark just looks weird.


If you are not sold on Trayvon being on top, you are ignoring just about all the evidence and testimony. If that's the case, you will never be convinced.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:53 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:And let me add.

Martin gets out of the car at around 7:13 PM. (The Chase). He loses sight of Martin.

He then spends TWO MINUTES... TWO WHOLE MINUTES on the phone with the operator, talking about where he would meet the officer, He hangs up at 7:15.

Martin's father's house was 80 yards from Zimmerman's car. Martin had obviously bolted and lost zimmerman - in a direction toward his dad's house. 2 minutes... he has 2 minutes to get home, and obviously Zimmerman is no longer "chasing him" as evident by the discussion with the operator.

Why didn't he get there, why did Martin turn around and come back toward Zimmerman? If Zimmerman got back to his car, would Martin have not also found him eventually since I think it was pretty obvious based on those 2 minutes that since Martin did not go home - he obviously was coming back to confront Zimmerman.


Because he wanted to fight. :roll:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:55 pm

Factorial wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:Why didn't Trayvon just go back to his dad's house? He had ample time to do that. Hell from the maps I can see, he may have actually gotten to his dad's house, then turned back around. There was no need for him to find and confront Zimmerman at all, at least other than to start a fight from what I can see.


Most likely because someone was following him and he was worried that he was about to be "jumped".


He knew who was following him, a crazy ass cracker... and if that was the case, he has less than a 10 second sprint to his dad's house. He didn't take that route, he either got to his dad's house (or partway to his dad's house) and then turned around to find and confront Zimmerman.

The timeline makes it crystal clear that Martin wanted the confrontation.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:56 pm

Factorial wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:And let me add.

Martin gets out of the car at around 7:13 PM. (The Chase). He loses sight of Martin.

He then spends TWO MINUTES... TWO WHOLE MINUTES on the phone with the operator, talking about where he would meet the officer, He hangs up at 7:15.

Martin's father's house was 80 yards from Zimmerman's car. Martin had obviously bolted and lost zimmerman - in a direction toward his dad's house. 2 minutes... he has 2 minutes to get home, and obviously Zimmerman is no longer "chasing him" as evident by the discussion with the operator.

Why didn't he get there, why did Martin turn around and come back toward Zimmerman? If Zimmerman got back to his car, would Martin have not also found him eventually since I think it was pretty obvious based on those 2 minutes that since Martin did not go home - he obviously was coming back to confront Zimmerman.


Because he wanted to fight. :roll:


Have you read Trayvon's text messages? Have you seen the photos on his phone? They won't be allowed in trial - but nothing says you can't make an educated decision based on them. In case you havent, Trayvon Martin did enjoy fighting.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:36 pm

Yeah, you can't really discount the theory that Martin wanted to eff up the creepy white cracker that was following him. We will never know if it happened, but Trayvon wasn't exactly an angel. Is certainly open for discussion.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:27 am

count2infinity wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Sorry, I don't think you get to initiate a confrontation with someone


what do you define as "initiate a confrontation". Are you speaking about a physical confrontation or verbal confrontation? I think the biggest issue in this case is that between tailing Martin and the gunshot, Zimmerman is the only person that knows exactly what happened. Is it possible that Martin threw the first punch? Is it possible that Martin turned and attacked Zimmerman? Is it possible that Zimmerman only pulled his gun at the point where he felt that his life was in danger? I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent. He obviously killed a person, but I would say that there is a bit of doubt that the prosecution has not been able to clear up (at least with me personally) as far as what happened leading up to and during the confrontation.

The moment GZ stepped out of his car, he lost the ability to claim self defense imo.


May the record show that there is no law against seeing something suspicious and following to see what's going on. Keep in mind here, I am not arguing that Zimmerman should not be punished for his moronic actions, I'm just saying that the prosecution has not done enough to get a guilty verdict, IMO.


Yeah, pretty much.

That's a silly notion that simply leaving his car made it open season for violence without him being able to defend himself. If that were the case, we'd be living in a horrific society.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shoeshine boy on Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:46 am

columbia wrote:I'm officially predicting a manslaughter conviction.


I'm torn between manslaughter conviction or deadlocked jury. no way in hell they get murder 2 and the DA is lucky that the jury doesn't know about their desperation try at felony murder/child abuse. pathetic.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:02 am

shmenguin wrote:
count2infinity wrote:May the record show that there is no law against seeing something suspicious and following to see what's going on. Keep in mind here, I am not arguing that Zimmerman should not be punished for his moronic actions, I'm just saying that the prosecution has not done enough to get a guilty verdict, IMO.


Yeah, pretty much.

That's a silly notion that simply leaving his car made it open season for violence without him being able to defend himself. If that were the case, we'd be living in a horrific society.


I don't think anyone is saying that him leaving the car made it open season for violence. The point is, he took a proactive decision in leaving his car instead of a passive decision of staying in his car. Making that proactive choice was the first step that led to the other things that happened. Up to the point that GZ left the car, it does not seem that TM made any proactive choice to engage GZ. That doesn't mean that GZ was looking for a fight or that he went with the intent to harm TM, it just means that he made a choice that led to the altercation; a choice that he could have avoided quite easily.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:11 am

But that isn't illegal MWB, it doesn't make him guilty of murder. Was the killing of TM murder? Possibly, but the state has not done enough to prove that. Based on the testimony and evidence presented in this case, there's little doubt in my mind that he will get a not guilty verdict. Or at least I would vote not guilty. He very well may have been the aggressor. He very well may have thrown the first punch. He very well may have pinned TM to the ground and shot him in cold blood. But that's not what has been presented in this case. The numerous witnesses and accounts of the happenings that night do not indicate murder. I'm not even sure the evidence is enough for manslaughter. Even though I do believe he is guilty of manslaughter, I don't think the state has proved that.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:30 am

Its interesting that some people aren't able to distinct between doing what is 'right' and doing what is 'legal'. What GZ did (following Martin) was, in my opinion, not right. It was, however, perfectly legal. Trials work in legality, not morality. What's more is that I see a lot of people wanting a conviction based on said morality but are some of the first to chime in when a politician wants to legislate morality.
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