Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby DudeMan2766 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:58 am

malkinshair wrote:
You seriously couldn't have made my point better for me if you tried.

How do you know what happened and who was guilty? How do you know what those emails were referring to exactly? How do you know the extent of what Paterno and others knew AT THE TIME? How do you know they knew Sandusky was raping children, and decided to cover it up so that they could keep making money? You don't, and neither does Freeh. His report details a version of what was, IN HIS OPINION, the most likely scenario. Read that again.

I am absolutely trying to discredit a report that assigned meaning and motive for 4 peoples' actions 11 years ago without as much as interviewing them...at least for the purpose of deciding punishment from an outside source that circumvented its own policy of 'due process'.

I'm not arguing that Freeh's conclusions are wrong...they very well could describe everything as it actually happened. I'm arguing that it is flawed and incomplete, and was never meant to be used as a smoking gun against Penn State. It became that when Freeh decided to hold a press conference claiming that his findings were fact...kind of.

To put it another way...you can take the same emails and information contained in the Freeh report and construct a 'just as plausible' scenario that doesn't involve an evil cover-up and protection for a known child rapist. The biggest and most flawed assumption in that report is that the 4 men knew the extent of Sandusky's transgressions and still decided to cover it up. Take that assumption away, and you have a horrific mistake, not an evil conspiracy.


What an embarrassing couple paragraphs. Dude, at this point, c'mon. THE EMAILS SAID THAT THEY WERE GOING TO POLICE TO REPORT SANDUSKY BUT AFTER SPEAKING WITH JOE THEY WERE TAKING A DIFFERENT COURSE OF ACTION. (Which was NOTHING) And thats not even the gist of them. They were way more detailed than you think. 9 month investigation, 1.2 million documents or whatever it was, the emails, the grand jury testimony. Like Madden said, some of you won't believe anything short of video of Joe looking right in the camera saying "Jerrys rapin' em, and I'm coving it up!"
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby DudeMan2766 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:04 am

Rocco wrote:
MWB wrote:
Rocco wrote:Speaking of the Freeh report:

http://chronicle.com/article/Freeh-Grou ... es/133213/

"That document was not meant to be used as the sole piece, or the large piece, of the NCAA's decision making," a source familiar with the investigation told The Chronicle on Thursday. "It was meant to be a mechanism to help Penn State move forward. To be used otherwise creates an obstacle to the institution changing."


Not sure I get that. How does it become an "obstacle"? It seems that the person quoted is saying that the report was to be used to get PSU to change on its own (move forward).


It's similar to the idea of protecting whistleblowers- we want people to do the right thing, but if whistleblowers had to risk being fired to come out they'd be less likely to come clean.



That sounds familiar :pop:
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Rocco on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:10 am

DudeMan2766 wrote:
Rylan wrote:
MWB wrote:
Rocco wrote:Speaking of the Freeh report:

http://chronicle.com/article/Freeh-Grou ... es/133213/

"That document was not meant to be used as the sole piece, or the large piece, of the NCAA's decision making," a source familiar with the investigation told The Chronicle on Thursday. "It was meant to be a mechanism to help Penn State move forward. To be used otherwise creates an obstacle to the institution changing."


Not sure I get that. How does it become an "obstacle"? It seems that the person quoted is saying that the report was to be used to get PSU to change on its own (move forward).


The Freeh report was not supposed to be used by the NCAA to punish PSU.


Who ******* cares? It found what it found. There was a cover up, lead by Joe Paterno, the emails prove that, so I dont care one way or another how or why the school is getting punished.


That is a mis-characterization of what the Freeh report found.

http://static.usnews.com/documents/nw/f ... 071212.pdf

I'd quote it but copying and pasting from a PDF file doesn't work, but on page 14 it points to the leadership of PSU, not just Paterno. And no one is denying that the school should be punished, just who should be the one punishing them. You keep saying that everyone wants PSU to have nothing happen to them which is either a stunning lack of reading comprehension or a Nancy Grace-ian ability to ignore what others are saying.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby DudeMan2766 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:15 am

And i have asked if not the NCAA who could punish them to satisfy some of you and was told the government. And no way in Hell that would ever fly.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby malkinshair on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:30 am

DudeMan2766 wrote:
Spoiler:
malkinshair wrote:
You seriously couldn't have made my point better for me if you tried.

How do you know what happened and who was guilty? How do you know what those emails were referring to exactly? How do you know the extent of what Paterno and others knew AT THE TIME? How do you know they knew Sandusky was raping children, and decided to cover it up so that they could keep making money? You don't, and neither does Freeh. His report details a version of what was, IN HIS OPINION, the most likely scenario. Read that again.

I am absolutely trying to discredit a report that assigned meaning and motive for 4 peoples' actions 11 years ago without as much as interviewing them...at least for the purpose of deciding punishment from an outside source that circumvented its own policy of 'due process'.

I'm not arguing that Freeh's conclusions are wrong...they very well could describe everything as it actually happened. I'm arguing that it is flawed and incomplete, and was never meant to be used as a smoking gun against Penn State. It became that when Freeh decided to hold a press conference claiming that his findings were fact...kind of.

To put it another way...you can take the same emails and information contained in the Freeh report and construct a 'just as plausible' scenario that doesn't involve an evil cover-up and protection for a known child rapist. The biggest and most flawed assumption in that report is that the 4 men knew the extent of Sandusky's transgressions and still decided to cover it up. Take that assumption away, and you have a horrific mistake, not an evil conspiracy.

What an embarrassing couple paragraphs. Dude, at this point, c'mon. THE EMAILS SAID THAT THEY WERE GOING TO POLICE TO REPORT SANDUSKY BUT AFTER SPEAKING WITH JOE THEY WERE TAKING A DIFFERENT COURSE OF ACTION. (Which was NOTHING) And thats not even the gist of them. They were way more detailed than you think. 9 month investigation, 1.2 million documents or whatever it was, the emails, the grand jury testimony. Like Madden said, some of you won't believe anything short of video of Joe looking right in the camera saying "Jerrys rapin' em, and I'm coving it up!"


For the 100th time in this thread...I'm not saying that the Freeh report is wrong. I'm saying that it shouldn't be used as the sole piece of evidence against PSU by the NCAA to determine an appropriate level of punishment. I'm saying this because the report itself relies on certain assumptions to connect dots. I'm certainly not saying that any of these men are 'innocent'...just that what they are guilty of may not be as 'evil' as it has been made out to be. You would probably counter with a 'so what, they still deserve what they get, and the University can rot as a result', but I don't feel that way. To me, '4 men conspiring to cover for a known child rapist so that they could continue to line their pockets' is a lot different than '4 men made a horrific mistake in judgement when they decided to try to handle allegations themselves instead of turning it over to child welfare.' You'll call it semantics, but it's not. Motive, for me, is vital to determining the what and why. To me, motive, not action (or inaction), determines appropriate level of punishment.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Rocco on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:31 am

DudeMan2766 wrote:And i have asked if not the NCAA who could punish them to satisfy some of you and was told the government. And no way in Hell that would ever fly.


You're kidding me, right? Who here has said the government was an illegitimate body to punish PSU under applicable criminal statutes? The feds are going to fine the bejeezus out of PSU under the Clery Act, those involved are going to be prosecuted, and the victims are going to get huge settlements in civil courts. The DOJ is investigating aswell. There are several decent reasons for people to argue that the NCAA should have gotten involved, but the idea that no one else would be able to punish the school except the NCAA is laughable/ignorant.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby DudeMan2766 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:44 am

malkinshair wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:
Spoiler:
malkinshair wrote:
You seriously couldn't have made my point better for me if you tried.

How do you know what happened and who was guilty? How do you know what those emails were referring to exactly? How do you know the extent of what Paterno and others knew AT THE TIME? How do you know they knew Sandusky was raping children, and decided to cover it up so that they could keep making money? You don't, and neither does Freeh. His report details a version of what was, IN HIS OPINION, the most likely scenario. Read that again.

I am absolutely trying to discredit a report that assigned meaning and motive for 4 peoples' actions 11 years ago without as much as interviewing them...at least for the purpose of deciding punishment from an outside source that circumvented its own policy of 'due process'.

I'm not arguing that Freeh's conclusions are wrong...they very well could describe everything as it actually happened. I'm arguing that it is flawed and incomplete, and was never meant to be used as a smoking gun against Penn State. It became that when Freeh decided to hold a press conference claiming that his findings were fact...kind of.

To put it another way...you can take the same emails and information contained in the Freeh report and construct a 'just as plausible' scenario that doesn't involve an evil cover-up and protection for a known child rapist. The biggest and most flawed assumption in that report is that the 4 men knew the extent of Sandusky's transgressions and still decided to cover it up. Take that assumption away, and you have a horrific mistake, not an evil conspiracy.

What an embarrassing couple paragraphs. Dude, at this point, c'mon. THE EMAILS SAID THAT THEY WERE GOING TO POLICE TO REPORT SANDUSKY BUT AFTER SPEAKING WITH JOE THEY WERE TAKING A DIFFERENT COURSE OF ACTION. (Which was NOTHING) And thats not even the gist of them. They were way more detailed than you think. 9 month investigation, 1.2 million documents or whatever it was, the emails, the grand jury testimony. Like Madden said, some of you won't believe anything short of video of Joe looking right in the camera saying "Jerrys rapin' em, and I'm coving it up!"


For the 100th time in this thread...I'm not saying that the Freeh report is wrong. I'm saying that it shouldn't be used as the sole piece of evidence against PSU by the NCAA to determine an appropriate level of punishment. I'm saying this because the report itself relies on certain assumptions to connect dots. I'm certainly not saying that any of these men are 'innocent'...just that what they are guilty of may not be as 'evil' as it has been made out to be. You would probably counter with a 'so what, they still deserve what they get, and the University can rot as a result', but I don't feel that way. To me, '4 men conspiring to cover for a known child rapist so that they could continue to line their pockets' is a lot different than '4 men made a horrific mistake in judgement when they decided to try to handle allegations themselves instead of turning it over to child welfare.' You'll call it semantics, but it's not. Motive, for me, is vital to determining the what and why. To me, motive, not action (or inaction), determines appropriate level of punishment.


So you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on whether they covered it up to protect the money making football program, or they were just doing it to keep their buddy Jerry out of jail? Keep in mind this went on for YEARS, and there were several instances, not just one where they made a mistake and didnt report it. They repeatedly made that mistake. Repeatedly. I just don't see how theres a grey area here and that some reasons for not stopping a child rapists are more 'eviler" than another.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:02 pm

Rylan wrote:PB as an outsider looking into this thread, it has appeared that you have major anger against PSU and nothing short of total annihilation would be a feasible punishment.

Replace PSU with Pitt, the Penguins, the Steelers, any other organization, etc. and I still feel the same. The school failed on a personal and organizational level to stop child rape. They deserve everything coming to them.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:59 pm

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8210231/top-penn-state-nittany-lions-recruits-meet-reaffirm-decision-stay

Wide receiver recruit Will Fuller of Philadelphia reiterated his commitment to Penn State on Saturday after speaking with Nittany Lions head coach Bill O'Brien -- as did several other players.

"Yeah, I'm 100 percent going there," Fuller said in a text.

Several Penn State recruits met with O'Brien on Saturday. Among them was tight end Adam Breneman, who said the sentiment applies to several players.

"Yes, we are all 100 percent committed," Breneman said of himself, Fuller, quarterback Christian Hackenberg (Fork Union, Va./Fork Union Military Academy), offensive linemen Brendan Mahon (Randolph, N.J./Randolph) and Andrew Nelson (Hershey, Pa./Hershey), and defensive lineman Garrett Sickels (Little Silver, N.J./Red Bank Regional).


I must admit....I am incredibly surprised (in a good way) by this news. I don't know if it's Bill O'Brien's motivating factors or not, but I'm admittedly shocked at how many of the recruits are still proudly sticking to their initial commitment, even knowing they will never appear in a bowl game.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby skullman80 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:00 pm

Hopefully that intent sticks around until signing day. It's good they say that now, but I've seen kids change their mind at the last minute for much more minor things.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:01 pm

skullman80 wrote:Hopefully that intent sticks around until signing day. It's good they say that now, but I've seen kids change their mind at the last minute for much more minor things.


Oh don't get me wrong, I know that A LOT of things can happen from now till signing day. Still surprised they would even make the vocal commitment though.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby count2infinity on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:05 am

One of my bestfriends from high school married a nephew of the owner of the Family Clothesline. For those that don't know, it's a large clothing store downtown. On the way to dinner last night we walked past the shop and saw them in there so we ran in to say hi. There was a shirt that caught my eye in passing. It said, "We are... Pissed off." I talked to the nephew of the owner about it and he said that the shirt was causing a lot of controversy. Apparently it was on the shelf before the Freeh report was released and before the NCAA handed down the punishments. The intent was that as a community, the Penn Staters are pissed that those in power allowed something like this to occur (i.e. pissed at Sandusky, Curley, Schultz, Spanier and Paterno), but it has been taken by some that they're pissed about the punishment that has been handed down and the JoePa statue being taken down. I just found it interesting.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:29 am

Yeah I cringe every time I see that shirt in a window on my way to work. It is just in poor taste in my opinion. I do however like "Restore the Roar" and "Billieve".
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:30 am

I'm in SC too right now. I almost bought one of those shirts but decided against it. I did see a guy wearing a Pirates shirt in one of those clothing stores yesterday. I was wearing my Pirates hat and he flashed me the Zoltan.

/csb
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby columbia on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:33 am

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:I'm in SC too right now. I almost bought one of those shirts but decided against it. I did see a guy wearing a Pirates shirt in one of those clothing stores yesterday. I was wearing my Pirates hat and he flashed me the Zoltan.

/csb


Best post of the thread.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby count2infinity on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:52 am

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:I'm in SC too right now. I almost bought one of those shirts but decided against it. I did see a guy wearing a Pirates shirt in one of those clothing stores yesterday. I was wearing my Pirates hat and he flashed me the Zoltan.

/csb


lolol... yessssss

:fist:
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby columbia on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:59 am

Erickson has said they intend to work out settlements with the victims and avoid actual trials.

That is the correct move, for all involved.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:15 am

count2infinity wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:I'm in SC too right now. I almost bought one of those shirts but decided against it. I did see a guy wearing a Pirates shirt in one of those clothing stores yesterday. I was wearing my Pirates hat and he flashed me the Zoltan.

/csb


lolol... yessssss

:fist:


I just realized it was at the Family Clothesline after checking the bag. The Monkeyboy I had last night impaired my memory.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby count2infinity on Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:18 am

oh monkeyboys....
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Rocco on Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:26 am

Admitting to everything makes it hard to do anything but write checks to the victims.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Factorial on Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:24 pm

Corporate sponsors dropping:

Automotive News is reporting that General Motors is reevaluating its financial support of the Nittany Lions athletic programs, though GM would not share specific details of its dealings with Penn State. If GM does decide to drop Penn State, it would follow on the heels of State Farm. The insurance company has announced that it is pulling TV advertisements during Penn State's home football games, according to the report.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/26/gm-r ... buse-case/
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby columbia on Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:31 pm

Were you scoping out the details of the next Chrysler 300 when you found that?
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:57 pm

If Pepsi decides to drop their affiliation with the school I wont be against it.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Factorial on Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:12 pm

columbia wrote:Were you scoping out the details of the next Chrysler 300 when you found that?


Nope, going Plymouth:

Image

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/28/plym ... k-w-video/
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Re: Jerry Sandusky Trial

Postby Pitt87 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:17 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8210231/top-penn-state-nittany-lions-recruits-meet-reaffirm-decision-stay

Wide receiver recruit Will Fuller of Philadelphia reiterated his commitment to Penn State on Saturday after speaking with Nittany Lions head coach Bill O'Brien -- as did several other players.

"Yeah, I'm 100 percent going there," Fuller said in a text.

Several Penn State recruits met with O'Brien on Saturday. Among them was tight end Adam Breneman, who said the sentiment applies to several players.

"Yes, we are all 100 percent committed," Breneman said of himself, Fuller, quarterback Christian Hackenberg (Fork Union, Va./Fork Union Military Academy), offensive linemen Brendan Mahon (Randolph, N.J./Randolph) and Andrew Nelson (Hershey, Pa./Hershey), and defensive lineman Garrett Sickels (Little Silver, N.J./Red Bank Regional).


I must admit....I am incredibly surprised (in a good way) by this news. I don't know if it's Bill O'Brien's motivating factors or not, but I'm admittedly shocked at how many of the recruits are still proudly sticking to their initial commitment, even knowing they will never appear in a bowl game.


Not that surprised, as these guys weren't in any danger of losing scholarships, but Mahon, Hackenberg, and Sickels project to be the types of talents that would be drafted high and could lose millions if PSU is in the basement of the Big Ten for all 4 years of their eligibility.

Nelson not as much since he probably wouldn't be a top-tier pick, but as tight ends begin to be a premium in the NFL, Breneman might have the most to lose. That's why Ross Douglas isn't going to PSU; he has a shot to be a top CB pick, and missing the top 2 CB picks could be the difference between huge signing bonus and league minimum.

Will be interesting to watch these five as other recruits de-commit.
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