Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby viva la ben on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:35 am

What about the part where Joe waited to talk to somebody because he didn't want to bother someone on their weekend.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby count2infinity on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:40 am

viva la ben wrote:What about the part where Joe waited to talk to somebody because he didn't want to bother someone on their weekend.


McQuery told Paterno on Saturday, February 10th. Paterno told Curly and Schultz on Sunday, February 11th all in 2001. That's according to the Freeh Report.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:40 am

Not those exact words, but he could have stated that he saw Sandusky in a shower with a young boy and he wasn't comfortable with what he witnessed. Sandusky was the Mister Rogers of State College. At the time, knowing what Paterno knew at that moment it would be difficult to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile without stronger language or evidence.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:43 am

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Not those exact words, but he could have stated that he saw Sandusky in a shower with a young boy and he wasn't comfortable with what he witnessed. Sandusky was the Mister Rogers of State College. At the time, knowing what Paterno knew at that moment it would be difficult to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile without stronger language or evidence.


mister rogers was investigated for similar acts just 3 years prior - somethign paterno and co. knew about.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby count2infinity on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:45 am

shmenguin wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Not those exact words, but he could have stated that he saw Sandusky in a shower with a young boy and he wasn't comfortable with what he witnessed. Sandusky was the Mister Rogers of State College. At the time, knowing what Paterno knew at that moment it would be difficult to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile without stronger language or evidence.


mister rogers was investigated for similar acts just 3 years prior - somethign paterno and co. knew about.


And charges were dropped and likely seen as merely a misunderstanding AT THE TIME.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:46 am

count2infinity wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Not those exact words, but he could have stated that he saw Sandusky in a shower with a young boy and he wasn't comfortable with what he witnessed. Sandusky was the Mister Rogers of State College. At the time, knowing what Paterno knew at that moment it would be difficult to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile without stronger language or evidence.


mister rogers was investigated for similar acts just 3 years prior - somethign paterno and co. knew about.


And charges were dropped and likely seen as merely a misunderstanding AT THE TIME.


it was enough of an incident that, when you're told about improper conduct with a young boy a few years later, a series of loud alarms should go off in your brain.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby relantel on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:52 am

viva la ben wrote:What about the part where Joe waited to talk to somebody because he didn't want to bother someone on their weekend.

That's already been detailed - McQueary witnessed on a Friday. Called Paterno Saturday morning. Paterno called Curley same day, met with Curley the next day.

If I recall, he was in Pittsburgh that Saturday night for the Dapper Dan dinner -- as this 2/10/01 P-G article confirms:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ee ... %2C5799950
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:52 am

count2infinity wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Not those exact words, but he could have stated that he saw Sandusky in a shower with a young boy and he wasn't comfortable with what he witnessed. Sandusky was the Mister Rogers of State College. At the time, knowing what Paterno knew at that moment it would be difficult to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile without stronger language or evidence.


mister rogers was investigated for similar acts just 3 years prior - somethign paterno and co. knew about.


And charges were dropped and likely seen as merely a misunderstanding AT THE TIME.


Note to mention there is no direct evidence that Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation. The emails presented as evidence that he did, do not include Paterno since he didn't use email, and though he was mentioned it doesn't mean that he was actually ever told about the details of the investigation. He could have merely known that Sandusky was being investigated by the police and that no charges were made.

Knowing the details about the 1998 allegations actually could make someone question new allegations since Sandusky was cleared by the Police and the Department of Public welfare before for similar accusations.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:04 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Note to mention there is no direct evidence that Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation. The emails presented as evidence that he did, do not include Paterno since he didn't use email, and though he was mentioned it doesn't mean that he was actually ever told about the details of the investigation. He could have merely known that Sandusky was being investigated by the police and that no charges were made.

Knowing the details about the 1998 allegations actually could make someone question new allegations since Sandusky was cleared by the Police and the Department of Public welfare before for similar accusations.


there's evidence he was told. but you aren't really into buying first hand accounts of events as credible evidence...so i don't know where to go from here.

and no...any person worth a s*** would hear repeat allegations and not just question the investigations. they would be very suspicious.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:09 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Paterno was never told of child rape. He was told at best that there was some improper conduct of a sexual nature


i don't know how i missed this. does this seem like it helps your case. at all?


My contention is that if McQuery made a somewhat vague report of sexual misconduct to Paterno, that Paterno, who was never properly trained on the reporting requirements of the child sexual abuse laws, did the right thing by reporting the incident to his supervisor, Curley to conduct an internal investigation to ensure there was enough evidence to require a report to the police and outside authorities. I think Paterno would have called the police if McQuery had stated that he saw child rape or if he was clear in his description of what he saw as being sexually deviant.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:13 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Note to mention there is no direct evidence that Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation. The emails presented as evidence that he did, do not include Paterno since he didn't use email, and though he was mentioned it doesn't mean that he was actually ever told about the details of the investigation. He could have merely known that Sandusky was being investigated by the police and that no charges were made.

Knowing the details about the 1998 allegations actually could make someone question new allegations since Sandusky was cleared by the Police and the Department of Public welfare before for similar accusations.


there's evidence he was told. but you aren't really into buying first hand accounts of events as credible evidence...so i don't know where to go from here.

and no...any person worth a s*** would hear repeat allegations and not just question the investigations. they would be very suspicious.


What first hand accounts? The only evidence of Paterno knowing about 1998 is from the emails in the Freeh report. If I missed something then please post a link.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby columbia on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:17 pm

columbia wrote:Ziegler is a high level Paterno truther, right?



He's behind framingpaterno.com.

So, yep.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:17 pm

http://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/2013 ... eh-report/

There were two e-mail chains that suggested Paterno was briefed on the 1998 incident. They included [Penn State athletic director Tim] Curley, [former director of campus police Gary] Schultz and [former university president Graham] Spanier. Paterno never used e-mail, although his secretary maintained an account for him.

One e-mail, dated May 5, 1998, came from Curley and read, ‘I have touched base with the coach. Keep us posted. Thanks.’

The next day Schultz e-mailed back with the subject line ‘Re: Joe Paterno’ and wrote, ‘Will do. Since we talked tonight I’ve learned that the Public Welfare people will interview the individual Thursday.’

There is a later second e-mail chain that includes the campus director of police under the subject line ‘Re: Jerry.’ It deals with numerous Sandusky developments, including him eventually being cleared of charges.

One May 13 e-mail from Curley to the group reads: ‘Anything new in this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands.’

The Freeh report concluded that the ‘coach’ in the aforementioned e-mails was Joe Paterno. ‘The reference to coach is believed to be Paterno,’ Freeh, the onetime director of the FBI, wrote.

The Paterno family response says that isn’t fair because there is no conclusive proof that ‘coach’ is coach Paterno.


so you're telling me "coach" isn't paterno? really? that's what you're saying?
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby relantel on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:20 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Note to mention there is no direct evidence that Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation. The emails presented as evidence that he did, do not include Paterno since he didn't use email, and though he was mentioned it doesn't mean that he was actually ever told about the details of the investigation. He could have merely known that Sandusky was being investigated by the police and that no charges were made.

Knowing the details about the 1998 allegations actually could make someone question new allegations since Sandusky was cleared by the Police and the Department of Public welfare before for similar accusations.


there's evidence he was told. but you aren't really into buying first hand accounts of events as credible evidence...so i don't know where to go from here.

and no...any person worth a s*** would hear repeat allegations and not just question the investigations. they would be very suspicious.

This isn't a direct parallel, but ever hear of someone named Bill Clinton?

He survived by blaming his problems on the "Vast right wing conspiracy" (well, that is a Hillary quote but it fits how they operated), and by in large, the public ignored his issues and doubted subsequent ones. The idea is cause doubt, and subsequent events look like a witch-hunt.

As for the case at hand, Paterno was not in the loop on 1998 and this has already been proven. Schultz most certainly was, as was Tom Harmon, the chief of police, who thought nothing of it when Schultz asked him in February 2001 if the 1998 report still existed. Both Schultz and Wendell Courtney, the then University Counsel, recall the 2001 event being reported to CYS (the same agency as in 1998 - it's in Schultz's grand jury testimony read into the record in December 2011 preliminary hearing -- the prosecutor is dumbfounded and doesn't understand it. Can't understand that before it got to the University Park police in 1998 it was reported to Centre County CYS -- instead insists on badgering Schultz about the UPPD having investigated. Quite an illustration of how one-sided the grand-jury environment is. Think this was Frank Fina. Had Fina been on the level, he'd have asked the clarifying question based on the 1998 facts if Schultz meant the Centre County CYS). And unfortunately, CYS and DPW aren't required to keep records of reports they consider unfounded. So when OAG is looking in 2010-2011, there's nothing to find because CYS and DPW aren't required to keep it.

And shmenguin - to your 12:17 post - "Coach" is not Paterno. Paterno was always referred to as "Joe".
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:21 pm

relantel wrote:And shmenguin - to your 12:17 post - "Coach" is not Paterno. Paterno was always referred to as "Joe".


oh good lord
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby viva la ben on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:22 pm

I went to Penn State football camp in 1987 and we were warned that "coach" would conduct random room checks, and if our room was a mess Coach Paterno would send you home.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby relantel on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:23 pm

shmenguin wrote:
relantel wrote:And shmenguin - to your 12:17 post - "Coach" is not Paterno. Paterno was always referred to as "Joe".


oh good lord

This is quite true though. Look at the 2001 chains, and the one Curley is getting raked over -- "After talking it over with Joe".... "I believe".

From 1998, it is far more likely that "Coach" is Sandusky but it is not clear. And since Curley and Schultz have been silenced, they can't speak in their own defense before trial.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:24 pm

viva la ben wrote:I went to Penn State football camp in 1987 and we were warned that "coach" would conduct random room checks, and if our room was a mess Coach Paterno would send you home.


there's no proof they weren't referring to the girls' lacrosse coach
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby count2infinity on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:25 pm

shmenguin wrote:
viva la ben wrote:I went to Penn State football camp in 1987 and we were warned that "coach" would conduct random room checks, and if our room was a mess Coach Paterno would send you home.


there's no proof they weren't referring to the girls' lacrosse coach


:roll:
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:27 pm

relantel wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
relantel wrote:And shmenguin - to your 12:17 post - "Coach" is not Paterno. Paterno was always referred to as "Joe".


oh good lord

This is quite true though. Look at the 2001 chains, and the one Curley is getting raked over -- "After talking it over with Joe".... "I believe".

From 1998, it is far more likely that "Coach" is Sandusky but it is not clear. And since Curley and Schultz have been silenced, they can't speak in their own defense before trial.


so where do you get this, exactly?
As for the case at hand, Paterno was not in the loop on 1998 and this has already been proven
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby slappybrown on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:34 pm

count2infinity wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
viva la ben wrote:I went to Penn State football camp in 1987 and we were warned that "coach" would conduct random room checks, and if our room was a mess Coach Paterno would send you home.


there's no proof they weren't referring to the girls' lacrosse coach


:roll:

I'm sorry but that was funny.

Asking me to believe that Coach doesn't refer to Paterno in the context of the emails shmenguin pointed out above is absurd.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:37 pm

yeah, i'm not trying to de-rail anything by being flip with that comment. it's a commentary on how i'm being asked to believe a very specific series of unlikely events, in order to show that paterno did not have reason to suspect that sandusky was a child rapist.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:42 pm

So whatever you write in an email makes it true? I should send an email that I won a billion dollars. Curley could be just using Paterno's name in order to get a faster response but not actually talk with him.
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby count2infinity on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:42 pm

You're not being asked to believe anything. Any rational, sane person looks at the e-mail and sees "coach" and knows it's referring to Paterno. I don't know where rel was going with his comment about it not being Paterno when it clearly is. You called him on it, I doubt there's any one else here that believes it, why the need to keep going with it?
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Re: Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

Postby relantel on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:42 pm

shmenguin wrote:
relantel wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
relantel wrote:And shmenguin - to your 12:17 post - "Coach" is not Paterno. Paterno was always referred to as "Joe".


oh good lord

This is quite true though. Look at the 2001 chains, and the one Curley is getting raked over -- "After talking it over with Joe".... "I believe".

From 1998, it is far more likely that "Coach" is Sandusky but it is not clear. And since Curley and Schultz have been silenced, they can't speak in their own defense before trial.


so where do you get this, exactly?
As for the case at hand, Paterno was not in the loop on 1998 and this has already been proven

By following the law. PA Law on disclosure of such things was very tight. Paterno would not have been allowed to know.

We follow the emails included in the Freeh report, some of which have been doctored, but also the ones left out. Contemporary emails refer to Paterno as Joe. Paterno himself did not have email.

The one with "Coach" -- the subject line is Re: Jerry.
http://notpsu.blogspot.com/2012/08/anal ... to-be.html

Just because Freeh stated it is believed to be Paterno, when Freeh was constantly making narratives the evidence didn't support, we should believe Freeh over the actual document? The URL shows plenty of examples and Curley always uses "Joe" for Paterno, and Schultz always uses "JVP". So "Coach" coming from either one of these two gentlemen is not talking about Paterno.
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