Lance Armstrong, Doper or Not?

[ulf]

I didn't say I hate cyclists and they all need to be removed from the road. I said they never obey any traffic laws.

And I'm saying that neither do most drivers. I feel that you are over-exaggerating the extent to which cyclists break the traffic code and are greatly underestimating the number of drivers that do worse. Again, I put my career salary on the line if anyone wants to take the bet and standardize a way to evaluate the problem.

Obviously neither of us are going to get these stats so this is a pointless argument, but I feel you're over-exaggerating drivers and vice versa for bikers. I think most agree with that. And yes, drivers mistakes are more dangerous.

[MWB]

I'm going to say walkers are the biggest offenders.
:pop:

[IanMoran]

steelhammer is saying DRIVERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK LAWS!!!! Then throws out 26 mph in 25 mph.. if so then sure, yea.. you win that one.

From a more realistic perspective lol, no.. I'd be shocked if half of cyclists actually make any attempt to follow any type of law.

I don't mind them.. I just hate when they think they're cars. Yea, they have the right, but its annoying being in a car as someone in front of you pedals away 15 mph below the speed limit in the middle of the road. If they could just ride closer to the edge to allow you the opportunity to pass if one presents itself I'd have no problem

[steelhammer]

I didn't say I hate cyclists and they all need to be removed from the road. I said they never obey any traffic laws.

And I'm saying that neither do most drivers. I feel that you are over-exaggerating the extent to which cyclists break the traffic code and are greatly underestimating the number of drivers that do worse. Again, I put my career salary on the line if anyone wants to take the bet and standardize a way to evaluate the problem.

Obviously neither of us are going to get these stats so this is a pointless argument, but I feel you're over-exaggerating drivers and vice versa for bikers. I think most agree with that. And yes, drivers mistakes are more dangerous.

Fair enough, but I don't claim that road cyclists are innocent, I just claim that drivers break more traffic laws with a much greater incidence. See if you can remain under the speed limit for 100% of your next commute while coming to a complete stop (absolutely zero velocity) at every stop sign (behind the light to boot) and maintain the proper car length distance at ALL times.

[IanMoran]

I'm going to say walkers are the biggest offenders.

When LGP'ers are the only person holding a car up from turning or a similar situation, do they pick up the pace a little to try to help the car out?

I always do a mini-jog type thing in that situation.. it seems like 98% of pedestrians walk as slowwwww as they possibly can when a car is trying to turn onto that street / then you get the red light... then when it turns green, more pedestrians walk slowwwlly across, almost making it impossible to ever turn

[steelhammer]

steelhammer is saying DRIVERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK LAWS!!!! Then throws out 26 mph in 25 mph.. if so then sure, yea.. you win that one.

From a more realistic perspective lol, no.. I'd be shocked if half of cyclists actually make any attempt to follow any type of law.

I don't mind them.. I just hate when they think they're cars. Yea, they have the right, but its annoying being in a car as someone in front of you pedals away 15 mph below the speed limit in the middle of the road. If they could just ride closer to the edge to allow you the opportunity to pass if one presents itself I'd have no problem

Silly me for citing actual laws instead of just making them up as I go, which you seem to prefer.

[IanMoran]

steelhammer is saying DRIVERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK LAWS!!!! Then throws out 26 mph in 25 mph.. if so then sure, yea.. you win that one.

From a more realistic perspective lol, no.. I'd be shocked if half of cyclists actually make any attempt to follow any type of law.

I don't mind them.. I just hate when they think they're cars. Yea, they have the right, but its annoying being in a car as someone in front of you pedals away 15 mph below the speed limit in the middle of the road. If they could just ride closer to the edge to allow you the opportunity to pass if one presents itself I'd have no problem

Silly me for citing actual laws instead of just making them up as I go, which you seem to prefer.

Really, you're REALLY going to make your argument around 26 in 25 type of offenses / claim its legitimate? You're obviously just making your point on a technicality.

If look at it from a practical matter... Why not increase that to going 15 mph over the speed limit / what is actually enforced (are laws really a law if they're never enforced?)

[columbia]

I was behind a moped last week, that was going 30 in the left lane on a four lane road.
Now THAT is just stupid....Most cyclists do a make a real effort to be aware of traffic behind them.

[IanMoran]

.Most cyclists do a make a real effort to be aware of traffic behind them.

I'll agree with this.. just can't stand the ones that don't

[JS©]

the majority of TdF winners over the last 20 years has some sort of doping incident on their resume.

Indurain (91-95) was popped for an agent that was prescribed for asthma users.
Bjarne Riis ('96) was nicknamed "Mr. 60%" because of the maximum allowable red-blood cell limit before being considered positive. Years later, he eventually said that he injected EPO to himself. He was removed from the TdF records for several years before being reinstated into the records in 2008 with an additional footnote.
Jan Ulrich had everything from the IOC trying to take away his gold medal, $35,000 worth of doping agents in his name, and being popped for amphethamines, before being busted this past February for a number of EPO-related things.
Marco Panati ('98) had a history of EPO and drug usage in general and also popped near 60% (see: Bjarne Riis) during his TdF days.
I think We all know Floyd Landis' story from 2006, but Óscar Pereiro (who was eventually awarded the 2006 title) popped for salbutamol, the same drug in which Indurain was popped for in '94. Both Pereiro and Indurain did have their doping rulings overturned, but is it really that hard for somebody like that to obtain a prescription?
Alberto Contador won in '07 and '09, but has a doping trail to his name from 2006 to 2010 and is currently under suspension due to popping during the 2010 TdF (which the title was eventually stripped from him.)

Once you get past 2008, you no longer have the cloud of doping that followed the sport like it had for the last 2 decades. Carlos Sastre ('08), Andy Schleck ('10, although more of a de facto winner based on Contador's doping), and Cadel Evens have been clean....so far. Based on the pattern of TdF winners, both before and after Lance, I have a hard time believing that Lance was clean. I want to believe he's clean, but the more claims that surface, the more it makes you wonder how likely that a dirty test is gonna surface.

[steelhammer]

steelhammer is saying DRIVERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK LAWS!!!! Then throws out 26 mph in 25 mph.. if so then sure, yea.. you win that one.

From a more realistic perspective lol, no.. I'd be shocked if half of cyclists actually make any attempt to follow any type of law.

I don't mind them.. I just hate when they think they're cars. Yea, they have the right, but its annoying being in a car as someone in front of you pedals away 15 mph below the speed limit in the middle of the road. If they could just ride closer to the edge to allow you the opportunity to pass if one presents itself I'd have no problem

Silly me for citing actual laws instead of just making them up as I go, which you seem to prefer.

Really, you're REALLY going to make your argument around 26 in 25 type of offenses / claim its legitimate? You're obviously just making your point on a technicality.

If look at it from a practical matter... Why not increase that to going 15 mph over the speed limit / what is actually enforced (are laws really a law if they're never enforced?)

So, if we are going by the actual law then you would tend to agree that drivers break the rules far more often, but if you can just pick and choose which rules should be enforced then the cyclists are the ones who break the law more often? And someone has to be going 40 in a 25 for you to even raise an eyebrow?!? Okay.

[steelhammer]

the majority of TdF winners over the last 20 years has some sort of doping incident on their resume.

Indurain (91-95) was popped for an agent that was prescribed for asthma users.
Bjarne Riis ('96) was nicknamed "Mr. 60%" because of the maximum allowable red-blood cell limit before being considered positive. Years later, he eventually said that he injected EPO to himself. He was removed from the TdF records for several years before being reinstated into the records in 2008 with an additional footnote.
Jan Ulrich had everything from the IOC trying to take away his gold medal, $35,000 worth of doping agents in his name, and being popped for amphethamines, before being busted this past February for a number of EPO-related things.
Marco Panati ('98) had a history of EPO and drug usage in general and also popped near 60% (see: Bjarne Riis) during his TdF days.
I think We all know Floyd Landis' story from 2006, but Óscar Pereiro (who was eventually awarded the 2006 title) popped for salbutamol, the same drug in which Indurain was popped for in '94. Both Pereiro and Indurain did have their doping rulings overturned, but is it really that hard for somebody like that to obtain a prescription?
Alberto Contador won in '07 and '09, but has a doping trail to his name from 2006 to 2010 and is currently under suspension due to popping during the 2010 TdF (which the title was eventually stripped from him.)

Once you get past 2008, you no longer have the cloud of doping that followed the sport like it had for the last 2 decades. Carlos Sastre ('08), Andy Schleck ('10, although more of a de facto winner based on Contador's doping), and Cadel Evens have been clean....so far. Based on the pattern of TdF winners, both before and after Lance, I have a hard time believing that Lance was clean. I want to believe he's clean, but the more claims that surface, the more it makes you wonder how likely that a dirty test is gonna surface.

Nice summary there.

[tifosi77]

Cyclists used to terrorize pedestrians and vehicle traffic along the beach in Redondo where I use to live. They'd be in packs of anywhere from 5-20 riders, and they'd never so much as slow for a stop sign, never mind actually stopping. They would fan out an occupy the entire lane of vehicular travel, not just the designated bike lane.

One day I saw a cop ticketing a group of about 8 or 9 of them. I honked.

[shafnutz05]

Most cyclists aren't bad, it's the ones that have a chip on their shoulder against those dreaded automobile drivers.

[Shyster]

Just make performance enhancing drugs legal and we can avoid all this nonsense.

This calls for the Saturday Night Live classic "All Drug Olympics":

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/update-all-drug-olympics/1198068

[JS©]

Just make performance enhancing drugs legal and we can avoid all this nonsense.

This calls for the Saturday Night Live classic "All Drug Olympics":

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/update-all-drug-olympics/1198068

[Pavel Bure]

Seriously this is bitter people that their fellow countrymen got beat badly by an American for a long stretch of time. That's why all this started. Leave Lance alone at this point, it stems from pure jealousy.

[Staggy]

I just find it hard to believe that in a sport where everyone was doping, he was clean and still managed to beat everyone that was doping. And with that said, it doesn't really change my perception of him at all. As Floyd Landis once said about Lance: if he didn't win those races, then someone else who was doping would have.

[JS©]

Seriously this is bitter people that their fellow countrymen got beat badly by an American for a long stretch of time. That's why all this started. Leave Lance alone at this point, it stems from pure jealousy.

I'm not sure that's true.

It's the USADA that suspended him from competition. Last year, former teammate Tyler Hamilton (an American) went on record saying that he and Armstrong took EPOs together between 1999 and 2001.

[Pavel Bure]

Seriously this is bitter people that their fellow countrymen got beat badly by an American for a long stretch of time. That's why all this started. Leave Lance alone at this point, it stems from pure jealousy.

I'm not sure that's true.

It's the USADA that suspended him from competition. Last year, former teammate Tyler Hamilton (an American) went on record saying that he and Armstrong took EPOs together between 1999 and 2001.

I just feel like a lot of this stems from people being in an uproar over jealousy. The guy was good, good enough to be dominating. Get over it. He's not competing anymore, just drop it and move on. There's no test they can do right now that will show he doped and there obviously wasn't any positive test back then. That's why I say it's jealousy and egos driving this train.

[Rylan]

Don't care. Lance is no longer relevant. The Tour de France is irrelevant to me. Just let it go. Cycling was full of cheaters thus causing it to be an even playing field. So who cares?

[MWB]

Seriously this is bitter people that their fellow countrymen got beat badly by an American for a long stretch of time. That's why all this started. Leave Lance alone at this point, it stems from pure jealousy.

I'm not sure that's true.

It's the USADA that suspended him from competition. Last year, former teammate Tyler Hamilton (an American) went on record saying that he and Armstrong took EPOs together between 1999 and 2001.

That's the same Hamilton who tested positive once and got a two year ban, then tested positive again and got an eight year ban. Not crazy to think he could have a motive to day that Armstrong also used.

[Gaucho]

Seriously this is bitter people that their fellow countrymen got beat badly by an American for a long stretch of time. That's why all this started. Leave Lance alone at this point, it stems from pure jealousy.

BS. The whole anti-doping crusade started back in the late 90s with the French police raiding French teams. I used to be a big cycling fan (well, I still am, I guess), they do not all use illegal substances, but I can say with 99% certainty that nobody has ever won the Tour de France or any other of the big stage races without using some form of performance enhancing drugs. The sad thing is that these are all great athletes even without the drugs. What is also sad is the fact that the cyclists are being made the scapegoats for something that is probably more or less common in many sports.

[Eismann]

I voted 'probably.' I still find it not believable that a billion other people in that sport have been popped for doping but somehow the all-time greatest is clean.

[Gaucho]

He had been convicted in 2005 when some old samples were opened and EPO was found using methods that had not been available before.