Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Rylan on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:39 am

That is what I use.

I was just wondering if there is a why or if it is just a "that's what it has always been" type thing
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby columbia on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:45 am

You're welcome to comment on your welcome home party.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby MWB on Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:14 pm

Rylan wrote:That is what I use.

I was just wondering if there is a why or if it is just a "that's what it has always been" type thing


It's all about the context. You're means you are. Your shows possession. So it shouldn't be a "that's the way it is" type thing.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Rylan on Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:18 pm

You missed my question MWB. I know the difference between "your" and "you're" lol

What I am asking is can you be giving "welcome" for the other person to possess. Thus making it "Your welcome" or is welcome something else (a feeling I assume) it which the deliverer of welcome is stating "You are welcome"

I know that is poorly written, but I could not think of another way to describe it.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Willie Kool on Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:07 pm

Rylan wrote:You missed my question MWB. I know the difference between "your" and "you're" lol

What I am asking is can you be giving "welcome" for the other person to possess. Thus making it "Your welcome" or is welcome something else (a feeling I assume) it which the deliverer of welcome is stating "You are welcome"

I know that is poorly written, but I could not think of another way to describe it.

Something like - "Your welcome was lacking sincerity" is correct. If you mean to actually address someone with "Your welcome" as in Here's your welcome, that would certainly be a strange usage, however technically correct.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby MWB on Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:48 pm

Rylan wrote:You missed my question MWB. I know the difference between "your" and "you're" lol

What I am asking is can you be giving "welcome" for the other person to possess. Thus making it "Your welcome" or is welcome something else (a feeling I assume) it which the deliverer of welcome is stating "You are welcome"

I know that is poorly written, but I could not think of another way to describe it.


Sorry, wasn't trying to diminish your question. Guess I'm just not sure what you mean.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby redwill on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:48 pm

What about "whom"? I know the technical usage (i.e., use "who" when it's a subject or when you would otherwise use "he/she" and use "whom" when it's an object or when you would otherwise use "him/her"), but it's often awkward and makes one sound like a pompous you-know-what.

"Whom are you voting for?" vs. "Who are you voting for?"

I suppose the first one is most correct, but it's also wrong because of the dangling preposition. So one should say "For whom are you voting?"

But NO ONE TALKS LIKE THAT! And no one should, probably. Which kind of brings me around to the original post in this thread: things change and, in some cases, maybe they should change. If it takes a witless popular revolt to effect the change, then so be it. Maybe. Me is undecided.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby MWB on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:26 pm

I think when a person is speaking or typing on a message board, there's a certain amount of colloquialism that is acceptable, even expected. When doing formal writing, I think it's best to stick with the formal language. But you're right, eventually things change, and what was once acceptable on a message board may then become acceptable in a formal setting.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Lt. Dish on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:38 pm

redwill wrote:What about "whom"? I know the technical usage (i.e., use "who" when it's a subject or when you would otherwise use "he/she" and use "whom" when it's an object or when you would otherwise use "him/her"), but it's often awkward and makes one sound like a pompous you-know-what.

"Whom are you voting for?" vs. "Who are you voting for?"

I suppose the first one is most correct, but it's also wrong because of the dangling preposition. So one should say "For whom are you voting?"

But NO ONE TALKS LIKE THAT! And no one should, probably. Which kind of brings me around to the original post in this thread: things change and, in some cases, maybe they should change. If it takes a witless popular revolt to effect the change, then so be it. Maybe. Me is undecided.


I use whom. I'm also a dork who's still kicking and screaming at using words like "impact" and "transition" as verbs.

When I walk on the wild side, I dangle my prepositions with impunity in informal (not in formal) use.

Talking goodly is hard work.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Shyster on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:37 pm

columbia wrote:You're welcome to comment on your welcome home party.

To add to the grammar discussion, welcome home is a phrasal adjective modifying party, as neither word would make sense by itself. So it is properly hyphenated to show that the worlds form a single adjective:

You're welcome to comment on your welcome-home party.

Hyphenating phrasal adjectives is an important rule that greatly increases clarity. But for the life of me I don’t remember ever being taught to do it in school. I ran across the practice in Bryan Garner’s legal-writing books.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Shyster on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:46 pm

redwill wrote:I suppose the first one is most correct, but it's also wrong because of the dangling preposition. So one should say "For whom are you voting?"

There is plenty of evidence that the "rule" about not ending sentences with prepositions is fallacious. I haven't independently investigated the assertion, but Bryan Garner claims this rule is a vestige of Latin grammar, where it was entirely improper to end sentences with prepositions. But Latin grammar doesn't control English grammar.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby redwill on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:26 pm

Shyster wrote:
redwill wrote:I suppose the first one is most correct, but it's also wrong because of the dangling preposition. So one should say "For whom are you voting?"

There is plenty of evidence that the "rule" about not ending sentences with prepositions is fallacious. I haven't independently investigated the assertion, but Bryan Garner claims this rule is a vestige of Latin grammar, where it was entirely improper to end sentences with prepositions. But Latin grammar doesn't control English grammar.


True. I'm OK either way. As I understand it, the split infinitive is also a vestige of Latin grammar.

It's weird how we can't even decide what the rules are.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby IanMoran on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:46 pm

I write on LGP, Facebook, texts, etc.. what I like to "think" is readable, but it is really just quick non-sense most of the time.

I don't have a problem switching to formal when I have to though, except avoiding passive voice. I naturally want to use passive voice in almost every sentence and it is a struggle for me to not do so. It has gotten to the point that I just control f all the forms of "be" to find my passive voice sentences and then re-write them.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:38 pm

Shyster wrote:There is plenty of evidence that the "rule" about not ending sentences with prepositions is fallacious. I haven't independently investigated the assertion, but Bryan Garner claims this rule is a vestige of Latin grammar, where it was entirely improper to end sentences with prepositions. But Latin grammar doesn't control English grammar.


Really? Huh! I have never heard this. Frankly, I never thought to question the "rule." Now that I think about it, I feel it makes perfect sense; maybe someday I'll have time to investigate it. Meanwhile, I, emboldened, am taking this football of knowledge to the house and never looking back.

Thanks. I love learning something new and useful everyday. :thumb:

You can't control English grammar; you can only hope to contain it!
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby shmenguin on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:34 am

Your precise semi colons are noted.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby mikey287 on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:12 am

Lt. Dish wrote:Frankly, I never thought to question the "rule."


If I may take an excerpt for questioning.

In this instance, quotations marks are used around a word as opposed to a proper, spoken quote (the ordinary course for quotation marks). Usually, this is indicative of a reference to a word without the meaning of the word being taken for face value in the context of the sentence.

- Her continuous use of the word "ectoplasm" made me blush.
- Given the amount of times that he used "solid" in his scouting report, one might suggest he's unsure of the player's exact strengths and weaknesses.

I believe that use to be correct. At the end of a sentence or preceding a comma, does the punctuation mark go inside the quotes (like Lt.'s quote above) or since it is not - unsure how to put this - a part of the sentence (more of an offset, so to speak) would the punctuation go outside?

It feels a tiny bit goofy to me to put it inside actually, but I think that's the correct way. Though if it is to offset a single symbol, then it goes outside: Las Vegas is renowned for its reckless use of the letter "X".

Anyone know the real deal here?

Additionally, I also didn't think to question the rule on ending a sentence with a prepositional phrase. Though, I chose to largely ignore it.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Rylan on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:34 am

Depends on where you are from. I have seen Europeans will more often write with the punctuation outside the quotation marks since it has no reason other than mere location to be located within the quotation marks. Americans are taught punctuation will always go within the quotation marks. Personally, I prefer the punctuation outside but that is just me.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby canaan on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:40 am

mikey287 wrote:In this instance, quotations marks are used around a word as opposed to a proper, spoken quote (the ordinary course for quotation marks). Usually, this is indicative of a reference to a word without the meaning of the word being taken for face value in the context of the sentence.

- Her continuous use of the word "ectoplasm" made me blush.
- Given the amount of times that he used "solid" in his scouting report, one might suggest he's unsure of the player's exact strengths and weaknesses.

I believe that use to be correct.


I would classify that as correct. The only thing that would be up for contention is if the word "ectoplasm" was used in the wrong context or used in a confusing way. i would probably avoid the quotation marks and go with a "[sic]" if it were an article or publication and you were quoting a direct statement (as opposed to paraphrasing).

mikey287 wrote:At the end of a sentence or preceding a comma, does the punctuation mark go inside the quotes (like Lt.'s quote above) or since it is not - unsure how to put this - a part of the sentence (more of an offset, so to speak) would the punctuation go outside?

It feels a tiny bit goofy to me to put it inside actually, but I think that's the correct way. Though if it is to offset a single symbol, then it goes outside: Las Vegas is renowned for its reckless use of the letter "X".

Anyone know the real deal here?


There are a couple of general rules regarding the use of quotations:
1. Commas and Periods always go inside the quotation marks, even if it is a single quotation.
Exception: e.g. Did Mikey say, "There is no chance we acquire Stamkos for a draft pick"?
2. If you are using multiple periods or question marks, use only one and place it inside the quote. (e.g. Did she say, "Is Crosby a line-cutter?")
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:05 am

Rylan wrote:Depends on where you are from. I have seen Europeans will more often write with the punctuation outside the quotation marks since it has no reason other than mere location to be located within the quotation marks. Americans are taught punctuation will always go within the quotation marks. Personally, I prefer the punctuation outside but that is just me.


Are you referring to the instances in British English when periods and commas go outside the quotation marks?

American: Mr. Jones said, "I'm so confused about these rules."
British: Mr Jones said, "I'm so confused about these rules".

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/brit ... style.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_a ... ifferences

Ages ago, I read an article (which I now can't find) about Noah Webster. According to the article, much of our differing punctuation and spelling here in the United States originated in the 18th and early 19th centuries as a form of rebellion against the Crown--especially in the odd instance when the "new" spelling was influenced by the French (e.g., "defense" instead of "defence"). Webster, for his part, was concerned with creating a unique American nationalist culture.

Wikipedia's page on Noah Webster appears to be well done and discusses the subject (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster). Honestly, I don't remember whether we covered this in my English classes in primary and secondary school. I find it so interesting.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby redwill on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:08 am

mikey287 wrote:Though, I chose to largely ignore it.


Split infinitive alert! Intentional, I suspect.

The split infinitive is interesting for the same reason Shyster gave about the dangling preposition. I think it is considered a grammatical error because in Latin, the phrase "to be" (for example) is a single word. Therefore, someone decided that it is improper to split the equivalent English two-word phrase. Anyway, that's what I heard. I'm not bothering to look it up.

But I wanna know who made these rules and who made them Almighty Arbiters of English Grammar. Also, if we can discard the dangling preposition and the split infinitive, what other rules can be discarded?
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Rylan on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:14 am

Honestly not sure. Its just something I have noticed over the years. I just know there is a difference. I will likely look into more in depth in the near future there.

There is also a theory that the dialects differences between Americans and British have actually occurred within the past 200 years with Americans sounding more like English-speakers originally sounded and the British having developed a new dialect since.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby columbia on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:16 am

Yes, but the Germans are constantly splitting their infinitives.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Shyster on Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:53 pm

I use Garner's rules on using other punctuation with quotation marks, namely, periods and commas go inside, colons and semicolons go outside, and question marks and exclamation marks go inside only if they are part of the quoted matter. The examples given by canaan above are correct under that rule. In the first the quoted material was not itself a question, but in the second one it was.
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:11 pm

I have a huge issue with dangling modifiers, and I see them all the time in print and online publications where you think the writers would know better (e.g., newspapers, magazines, news sites).
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Re: Grammar, punctuation, and all that jazz

Postby mac5155 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:33 pm

canaan wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
nocera wrote:Since this is a grammar thread, and there is one in the title, what are your thoughts on the Oxford comma?


I had a teacher in college that said it was appropriate for speech writing to represent a pause but incorrect to use both a comma and the word 'and', was redundant in written form since they both separate the same items in a list. Since the word 'and' is required to end the list, the comma was incorrect.

i am a proponent of the oxford comma as distinctly eliminates ambiguous articles in a list such as:

egg and cheese biscuit, bagel and cream cheese, and steak and eggs.


...if that makes sense.

I'll have one of each, please.
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