Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby canaan on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:17 pm

He better hope Barajas isn't nearby because rod might eat first, ask questions later
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:37 pm

canaan wrote:He better hope Barajas isn't nearby because rod might eat first, ask questions later


Great form :fist:
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:21 pm

The Pirates announced that they acquired right-hander Vin Mazzaro and first baseman Clint Robinson from the Royals for minor league pitchers Luis Rico and Luis Santos. The Pirates designated Yamaico Navarro and Matt Hague for assignment in a related move.


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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:47 pm

Let's say the Pirates sign Russell Martin. What will be more depressing- when McKenry outperforms him, or when Hurdle makes up excuses to play Martin over McKenry without admitting it is due to money?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Rocco wrote:Let's say the Pirates sign Russell Martin. What will be more depressing- when McKenry outperforms him, or when Hurdle makes up excuses to play Martin over McKenry without admitting it is due to money?



With the catcher position he can always just say he's better at "managing the staff'. Such a general subjective statement that it can't be refuted.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:56 pm

Also, could be worse, they could have just committed $21M to Jonathon Broxton.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:18 pm

Troy Loney wrote:Also, could be worse, they could have just committed $21M to Jonathon Broxton.


Its getting there....

Jon Heyman of CBS Sports has an update on the Russell Martin bidding, noting that the Pirates and Yankees seem to be the leaders in the race. He notes that the Pirates actually may have the high bid at the moment.


Word is they made a 3yr/25M offer.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:19 pm

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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ville5 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:05 am

Maybe someone can explain someone like Martin to me.
First 3 seasons he hit .280 and above.
The 4 seasons after that: .250, .248, .237 and .211, power has increased only slightly. So it doesn't seem to be total abandonment of making contact and going with the pitch.
But the continuing severe decline in average is very worrisome. Weird and definitely not worth an $8 mil./ year.
offer.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:14 am

ville5 wrote:Maybe someone can explain someone like Martin to me.
First 3 seasons he hit .280 and above.
The 4 seasons after that: .250, .248, .237 and .211, power has increased only slightly. So it doesn't seem to be total abandonment of making contact and going with the pitch.
But the continuing severe decline in average is very worrisome. Weird and definitely not worth an $8 mil./ year.
offer.



Baseball is a game of adjustements, that's why if your Jose Tabata and come up hitting .300+ by making a living going the opposite way, you need to make an adjustement when pitchers just pound you inside all day, or else you look like you belong in AA.

I wouldn't say Martin is declining, he was just playing over his head, pitchers adjusted and he has holes in his swing that he'll probably never correct. He'll probably hit around 250 and hit 15-20 HR. BJ Upton just got paid to hit 250 and hit 30 HR in the outfield, that's just the way it is.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ville5 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:37 am

Troy Loney wrote:
ville5 wrote:Maybe someone can explain someone like Martin to me.
First 3 seasons he hit .280 and above.
The 4 seasons after that: .250, .248, .237 and .211, power has increased only slightly. So it doesn't seem to be total abandonment of making contact and going with the pitch.
But the continuing severe decline in average is very worrisome. Weird and definitely not worth an $8 mil./ year.
offer.



Baseball is a game of adjustements, that's why if your Jose Tabata and come up hitting .300+ by making a living going the opposite way, you need to make an adjustement when pitchers just pound you inside all day, or else you look like you belong in AA.

I wouldn't say Martin is declining, he was just playing over his head, pitchers adjusted and he has holes in his swing that he'll probably never correct. He'll probably hit around 250 and hit 15-20 HR. BJ Upton just got paid to hit 250 and hit 30 HR in the outfield, that's just the way it is.

Still, 3 seasons .280-.293 down to .211 is bizarre. Especially considering he's still under 100 ks per season.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby beerman on Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:11 am

He's started swinging at more and more pitches out of the zone pretty much every season (under 20% 3 of his first 4 years, over 22% each of the last 3), if he could cut that out he could probably return his walk and k rates back closer to where they were but he seems like the type that's just been unable to make any adjustment and that's why he looks like crap at the plate. Given the plate discipline issues that just about everyone on the team already has I'm not sure the Pirates are going to be able to help him to make that adjustment.

His average has dropped 5 straight years and OBP 4 straight to me thats a decline however, it is possible it got exaggerated and he started doing this to hit for more power when he went to NY. His problems did get worse upon arriving there, he got his home run power back which had been steadily evaporating but everything else went to hell.

I wonder if the Martin from 09-10 with LA (the bad years that led to him getting non-tendered) would be preferable to the last two years in NY? 249/350/330 over 836 AB in 09-10 vs 224/317/405 in 839 AB in 11-12 with NY. Big drop in power but almost completely from homers alone, the difference between the LA years and NY years is 3 doubles. Given the rest of the lineup I'd rather have someone at the bottom more likely to get a hit/ on base and help move runners over as opposed to one that's either going to whiff or put one in the seats. You can always use more power but they could probably get enough from Cutch, Pedro, Jones and to a lesser extent Walker and Marte..

I don't think he's going to be capable of hitting 250 with close to 20 homers, he can probably adjust to be more patient and hit near 250 but I think his power will probably go away again. He can probably keep swinging for the fence and hit 20 homers or close to it but he'll probably struggle to hit 225 that way at this point.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby schreibdog on Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:01 pm

Reading about the impending tender deadline tomorrow and the possibility of Karstens, Morton, and Resop not being tendered. My thoughts:

Resop - Whatever. He's filler for the bullpen as far as I'm concerned. If we lose him I'm sure we can pick up another guy with a 4 ERA for the 'pen.

Morton - I'd hate to see him non-tendered and lost to another team. Granted, he won't be back on a mound until at least June/July, but they've invested so much time working with him (nice article in the PG the other day about him, http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/pirates/pirates-morton-strives-to-jump-start-career-after-tommy-john-procedure-663688/) on rebuilding his mechanics as well as working with him post-surgery. He showed flashes in 2011...I don't see any reason to give up on him now.

Karstens - I'll be downright upset if they don't tender him. He's at best a #3 SP, but I don't see how you'll find a better SP option (keep in mind he's had a 3.59 ERA the last 2 years with low BB ratio) for the amount he's going to get in arbitration. If the Pirates are really down on him because of his injuries the last year, then tender him and trade him. The Bucs can ill afford to lose an asset for nothing just because they don't feel he's worth what he'll get in arbitration. They lost Maholm for nothing last year and I consider that a mistake as well. Even though Karstens might not yield much in a trade, there's zero point in losing him for nothing, IMO. And, Pitching Gods don't grow on trees :D
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:51 pm

Did any of you get a Kenny Chesney presale code password? I know Pirates STH's did last year. Go Bucs!
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

"@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Pirates reach agreement with Russell Martin, pending physical."
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby MWB on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:49 pm

@Ken_Rosenthal: Martin got $17M for two years, per @DavidWaldstein. Earned $7.5M with #Yankees last season.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:05 pm

I like this. A lot.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:05 pm

Pirates make a transaction. Dejan complains about it reduntanly as hes already preemptively complained about the potential of the move.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:07 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:I like this. A lot.


The response seems overwhelmingly negative. My conclusion is either people are wilfuly ignorant orjust rabble rousers
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:13 pm

Troy Loney wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:I like this. A lot.


The response seems overwhelmingly negative. My conclusion is either people are wilfuly ignorant orjust rabble rousers


No matter what the pirates do, people whine.

Yesterday - bring in 3 depth guys that probably never even sniff the big league roster, everyone whines aand cries

Today - sign the best real catcher on the FA market, at a time where our catching is a joke, everyone whines

Listen, the price tag was not that steep, and the C position was our one glaring hole heading into the season. I'm not exactly sure what people would have rather seen happen? Anyone?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:18 pm

Martin has a 20% throw-out rate? I guess it's better than 8%
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby FreeCandy44 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:19 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:I like this. A lot.

Me 2....
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:19 pm

Rocco wrote:Let's say the Pirates sign Russell Martin. What will be more depressing- when McKenry outperforms him, or when Hurdle makes up excuses to play Martin over McKenry without admitting it is due to money?


Hopefully the main excuse is because McKenry **** sucks.

He blows defensively and he strikes out a ton. The only reason people in Pittsburgh like him is because he's a little guy that works hard and because by some fluke he had a 3 week power surge. Other than those 3 weeks, he's been absolute garbage.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:23 pm

McKenry was hitting .192 on June 25th, then hit 8 homers in the next 5 weeks and raised his average to .285, then hit 1 homer the last 2 months and dropped his average to .233
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby JS© on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:24 pm

MWB wrote:@Ken_Rosenthal: Martin got $17M for two years, per @DavidWaldstein. Earned $7.5M with #Yankees last season.


kinda weird that in one sport 8.5m gets you a catcher that barely hits .200 and for an additional 200k in a different sport you can have the league's best player.
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