Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby canaan on Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:21 am

Defence21 wrote:This Martin signing is comparable to the Rangers signings of Scott Gomez and Wade Reddon. The difference? The Rangers are big spenders and easily could correct their mistakes without worrying about the financial ramifications. The Pirates, on the other hand, are not big spenders and can't correct a mistake of this magnitude without financial ramifications. This signing is just the latest in a long line of idiocy coming from all parties involved with the Pirates. DK needs to stop being so sensational with his acquisitions, but he also shouldn't stop being negative just because fans want him to be positive.

c'mon dude. the comparison you're making is absurd. the redden/gomez deals were long-term deals with gross overpayments. this is a two-year deal on a limited budget and a glaring hole. who would be the adequate filler in this spot that would be scorn-free? answer: there isn't one.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:32 am

If we some how add a RF and a #3 starter, then I'll get excited.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Batman on Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:34 am

The last time Pittsburgh team signed a UFA named martin it didn't turn out so well :scared: :scared: :scared:
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Defence21 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:42 am

canaan wrote:
Defence21 wrote:This Martin signing is comparable to the Rangers signings of Scott Gomez and Wade Reddon. The difference? The Rangers are big spenders and easily could correct their mistakes without worrying about the financial ramifications. The Pirates, on the other hand, are not big spenders and can't correct a mistake of this magnitude without financial ramifications. This signing is just the latest in a long line of idiocy coming from all parties involved with the Pirates. DK needs to stop being so sensational with his acquisitions, but he also shouldn't stop being negative just because fans want him to be positive.

c'mon dude. the comparison you're making is absurd. the redden/gomez deals were long-term deals with gross overpayments. this is a two-year deal on a limited budget and a glaring hole. who would be the adequate filler in this spot that would be scorn-free? answer: there isn't one.

I guess my issue isn't necessarily with this signing as an individual, but rather the continued frustration with the overall mismanagement. Consistently, we see the Pirates overpay for fading, has-beens or never-weres, while passing up on serviceable (though not extraordinary) players who would cost the same or maybe less. And then, on a regular basis, we see the signed players fail, ultimately ending up being cut or relegated to the bench or platoon duty. I'll admit, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about baseball as I am about hockey -- but I have plenty of friends who follow baseball as closely, if not closer, than I follow hockey, and I'm finding that few are happy with how things are being run with regard to major league player movement.

I might be offbase with the Martin comparison to Redden/Gomez, but I'm not that offbase overall.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby beerman on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:35 pm

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... -baseball/

Nice read on Martin signing with the Pirates and the impact he should have on getting them some calls on balls/strikes...
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby joopen on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:43 pm

I'm not quick to heap praise on the Pirates but I will give them this... They recognized a weakness and found the best option available to fill it. That doesn't mean Martin will be an all-star and MVP but they got the best fix that was available. I won't comment on the $$$ aspect of it because I don't know the going rate for catchers
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby DudeMan2766 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:55 pm

I'd say it was the going rate to get anyone serviceable to come to the Pirates. I have no problem what so ever with the contract...mainly because it aint my money. Its not like they were going to use that 17mill to throw into a bigger contract for a Josh Hamilton or anything.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:31 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:I'd say it was the going rate to get anyone serviceable to come to the Pirates. I have no problem what so ever with the contract...mainly because it aint my money. Its not like they were going to use that 17mill to throw into a bigger contract for a Josh Hamilton or anything.


I would have rather seen them spend the money on a RF/Leadoff hitter ala Shane Victorino. Not sure where Martin fits in with regards to the lineup
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Defence21 wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
Haha this is just unreal.

Pirates don't spend - Fans' response: "This is ridiculous, they should have spent more!"

Pirates spend - Fans' response: "This is ridiculous, they're just spending to spend!"

What gives?

What gives? Are you serious?

When people say they want the Pirates to increase the payroll and open the pocketbooks, they say so assuming it's understood that the money should be spent on players who deserve it and can improve the team. No one wants to see the Pirates spend money just to spend money. Money doesn't win games. Good players do. But good players earn good money. So, therefore, to have a better chance at winning, the Pirates need to spend some money on good players -- not declining players who are no better than the ones they have.

That $17 million certainly could be put to much better use than a catcher batting .211 with average/good defensive skills.

If Huntington would stop wasting cash on rejects and has-beens, he'd actually have some money to spend on legitimately helpful players -- and THAT is what fans want to see.

It's not a hard concept to understand.


The only people that would consider Russell Martin a "reject" or a "has-been" are in the local media. Opinions of actual legit sources from national outlets are that it was an excellent signing for the Pirates and that Martin was worth more than he was given.

That isn't a hard concept to understand either.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:47 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:I'd say it was the going rate to get anyone serviceable to come to the Pirates. I have no problem what so ever with the contract...mainly because it aint my money. Its not like they were going to use that 17mill to throw into a bigger contract for a Josh Hamilton or anything.


I would have rather seen them spend the money on a RF/Leadoff hitter ala Shane Victorino. Not sure where Martin fits in with regards to the lineup


Imagine if Tabata came to camp in shape and motivated, that would kill two birds with one stone (leadoff hitter and corner outfielder)
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:48 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:If we some how add a RF and a #3 starter, then I'll get excited.


Can't disagree with you in that these are 2 positions of need, but i will say this:

The Pirates have internal options for RF (Tabata, Presley, Snider, Jones) and P (McPherson, Locke, Cole eventually) but none for C.

That said, if they let Karstens walk they're going to end up being 2 pitchers short of a good rotation.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:50 pm

I definitely wouldn't rule out the possibility of Jones becoming the everyday right fielder and Sanchez becoming everyday 1B. I have a good feeling about Gaby this year
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
Haha this is just unreal.

Pirates don't spend - Fans' response: "This is ridiculous, they should have spent more!"

Pirates spend - Fans' response: "This is ridiculous, they're just spending to spend!"

What gives?

What gives? Are you serious?

When people say they want the Pirates to increase the payroll and open the pocketbooks, they say so assuming it's understood that the money should be spent on players who deserve it and can improve the team. No one wants to see the Pirates spend money just to spend money. Money doesn't win games. Good players do. But good players earn good money. So, therefore, to have a better chance at winning, the Pirates need to spend some money on good players -- not declining players who are no better than the ones they have.

That $17 million certainly could be put to much better use than a catcher batting .211 with average/good defensive skills.

If Huntington would stop wasting cash on rejects and has-beens, he'd actually have some money to spend on legitimately helpful players -- and THAT is what fans want to see.

It's not a hard concept to understand.


The only people that would consider Russell Martin a "reject" or a "has-been" are in the local media. Opinions of actual legit sources from national outlets are that it was an excellent signing for the Pirates and that Martin was worth more than he was given.

That isn't a hard concept to understand either.


DK was leading the "martin sucks" crowd, and when Heyman basically told him he's wrong and that's a good signing....DK said that it's not the actual marting signing but the bigger picture.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:50 pm

DK is a child. I'm assuming by "bigger picture" he means what better we could have done with the 17 million. However, I have yet to see him suggest an alternative.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby DudeMan2766 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:53 pm

Just curious, did he catch for AJ at all while in NY? I think they were only both there for the 2011 season if im not mistaken...and not that it really matters. Just wondering
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Defence21 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:53 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
Haha this is just unreal.

Pirates don't spend - Fans' response: "This is ridiculous, they should have spent more!"

Pirates spend - Fans' response: "This is ridiculous, they're just spending to spend!"

What gives?

What gives? Are you serious?

When people say they want the Pirates to increase the payroll and open the pocketbooks, they say so assuming it's understood that the money should be spent on players who deserve it and can improve the team. No one wants to see the Pirates spend money just to spend money. Money doesn't win games. Good players do. But good players earn good money. So, therefore, to have a better chance at winning, the Pirates need to spend some money on good players -- not declining players who are no better than the ones they have.

That $17 million certainly could be put to much better use than a catcher batting .211 with average/good defensive skills.

If Huntington would stop wasting cash on rejects and has-beens, he'd actually have some money to spend on legitimately helpful players -- and THAT is what fans want to see.

It's not a hard concept to understand.


The only people that would consider Russell Martin a "reject" or a "has-been" are in the local media. Opinions of actual legit sources from national outlets are that it was an excellent signing for the Pirates and that Martin was worth more than he was given.

That isn't a hard concept to understand either.

I'm being sincere here, and not at all smug or sarcastic -- but I must really know less than I thought I knew about baseball. All I've read says he's an average to good defensive catcher who is capable, but not great at throwing out baserunners; is good at blocking pitches; and expands the strike zone with his catching style better than most. By my estimation, that is an improvement over Barajas and Mckenry. His offense has been in a steady and sharp decline for years, which puts him at or near the subpar level of Barajas. I just don't get how this guy is good enough to be the second or third highest paid player on the team -- by a large margin -- based on what I see. Again, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but rather, trying to understand.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:54 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:Just curious, did he catch for AJ at all while in NY? I think they were only both there for the 2011 season if im not mistaken...and not that it really matters. Just wondering


yes 2011
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:56 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:If we some how add a RF and a #3 starter, then I'll get excited.


Can't disagree with you in that these are 2 positions of need, but i will say this:

The Pirates have internal options for RF (Tabata, Presley, Snider, Jones) and P (McPherson, Locke, Cole eventually) but none for C.

That said, if they let Karstens walk they're going to end up being 2 pitchers short of a good rotation.


if the pirates are serious about playing 500 baseball for an entire year their options at key positions cant be untested rookies and fringe prospects like most of those guys you mentioned.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:58 pm

Defence21 wrote:I'm being sincere here, and not at all smug or sarcastic -- but I must really know less than I thought I knew about baseball. All I've read says he's an average to good defensive catcher who is capable, but not great at throwing out baserunners; is good at blocking pitches; and expands the strike zone with his catching style better than most. By my estimation, that is an improvement over Barajas and Mckenry. His offense has been in a steady and sharp decline for years, which puts him at or near the subpar level of Barajas. I just don't get how this guy is good enough to be the second or third highest paid player on the team -- by a large margin -- based on what I see. Again, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but rather, trying to understand.


I think people forget what the market is like in baseball. 8.5 million doesn't get you a stud - I mean don't forget Rod friggin Barajas got 4 million last year and he was probably the worst catcher in the league. Plus to get a guy to come to the ever-losing Pirates, it's going to take some cash.

In the grand scheme of things, Russell Martin is probably somewhere between 11-20 in terms of the top 30 catchers in the league. But it will be well worth that money to put a legitimate catcher behind the plate (probably for the first time since Jason Kendall) who can more than hold his own in the 7 spot of the order.

Fact of the matter is people should be happy that the Pirates were finally able to land a legitimate free agent. This guy was the best full-time catcher available on the market this off-season. Hopefully that signifies that the Pirates are finally being acknowledged as a legitimate baseball team.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:01 pm

Catcher salaries in 2012, not exactly appetizing:

1 Joe Mauer Minnesota Twins $ 23,000,000
2 Brian McCann Atlanta Braves $ 11,500,000
3 Mike Napoli Texas Rangers $ 9,400,000
4 Russell Martin New York Yankees $ 7,500,000
5 Yadier Molina St. Louis Cardinals $ 7,000,000
6 John Buck Miami Marlins $ 6,500,000
7 A.J. Pierzynski Chicago White Sox $ 6,000,000
8 Miguel Montero Arizona Diamondbacks $ 5,900,000
9 Kurt Suzuki Oakland Athletics $ 5,037,500
10 Geovany Soto Chicago Cubs $ 4,300,000
11 Rod Barajas Pittsburgh Pirates $ 4,000,000
12 Miguel Olivo Seattle Mariners $ 3,750,000
13 Carlos Ruiz Philadelphia Phillies $ 3,700,000
14 Chris Iannetta Los Angeles Angels $ 3,550,000
15 Yorvit Torrealba Texas Rangers $ 3,250,000
16 Ramon Hernandez Colorado Rockies $ 3,200,000
17 Ryan Doumit Minnesota Twins $ 3,000,000
18 Jarrod Saltalamacchia Boston Red Sox $ 2,500,000
19 Nick Hundley San Diego Padres $ 2,000,000
20 David Ross Atlanta Braves $ 1,625,000
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby cheesesteakwithegg on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:01 pm

I like the Martin signing. He is no Matt Weiters, but he was regarded as one of the top 2 FA catchers out there. Even if he doesn't pan out, it is encouraging that one of the top free agents at a critical position actually chose the Buccos. Plus, he has been an all star as recent as 2011 and a gold glove winner, more than we could ever say about Barajas.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:04 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:If we some how add a RF and a #3 starter, then I'll get excited.


Can't disagree with you in that these are 2 positions of need, but i will say this:

The Pirates have internal options for RF (Tabata, Presley, Snider, Jones) and P (McPherson, Locke, Cole eventually) but none for C.

That said, if they let Karstens walk they're going to end up being 2 pitchers short of a good rotation.


if the pirates are serious about playing 500 baseball for an entire year their options at key positions cant be untested rookies and fringe prospects like most of those guys you mentioned.


I think Jones should be the every day 1B. If I had my way Tabata would be traded and Snider in a platoon role with a veteran RF. I dont think Karstens will be back. I have no problem with a rotation of Burnett, Wandy, UFA, McDonald, Locke especially with Cole and Tailion only a 1/2 season to season away from making it to the majors.

I dont know who fits the bill of veteran #3 starter who the Pirates can afford after over-paying Martin.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby since1970 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:04 pm

salary breakdown..2 mil signing bonus...6.5mil 2013...and the 2014 salary is cushioned a little by the new TV deal, so not bad. Looks like they're trying to get Grilli back, if they do I'd trade Hanrahan. I still say a Hanrahan/Jones/Snider,Tabata,Presley package can fill some remaining holes. Possible to get Cleveland interested in trading Cabrera and Choo?? Hanrahan lets them dump Perez, and Jones and/or Tabata, Snider, or ?? gives them first base and outfield flexibility as well as reduces their payroll. I know our payroll goes up, but I think that lineup is playoff worthy.

Choo
Walker
Cutch
Alvarez
Sanchez/Robinson
Cabrera
Martin
Marte
P
I can dream
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:04 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:If we some how add a RF and a #3 starter, then I'll get excited.


Can't disagree with you in that these are 2 positions of need, but i will say this:

The Pirates have internal options for RF (Tabata, Presley, Snider, Jones) and P (McPherson, Locke, Cole eventually) but none for C.

That said, if they let Karstens walk they're going to end up being 2 pitchers short of a good rotation.


if the pirates are serious about playing 500 baseball for an entire year their options at key positions cant be untested rookies and fringe prospects like most of those guys you mentioned.


Well they played .500 ball all last year with those guys in right. One of them has to emerge right? Hopefully?

Starters, you can probably get by with one of those 2 rooks as the #5 guy, I mean how much worse than Correia could they be?

If they want to do better than last year though, they'll need to tender Karstens and sign a vet to round out the rotation. I would hope that out of Marte, Tabata, Presley, Snider, two of them could emerge (please?). Plus there's Jones to play right.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:04 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:Catcher salaries in 2012, not exactly appetizing:

1 Joe Mauer Minnesota Twins $ 23,000,000
2 Brian McCann Atlanta Braves $ 11,500,000
3 Mike Napoli Texas Rangers $ 9,400,000
4 Russell Martin New York Yankees $ 7,500,000
5 Yadier Molina St. Louis Cardinals $ 7,000,000
6 John Buck Miami Marlins $ 6,500,000
7 A.J. Pierzynski Chicago White Sox $ 6,000,000
8 Miguel Montero Arizona Diamondbacks $ 5,900,000
9 Kurt Suzuki Oakland Athletics $ 5,037,500
10 Geovany Soto Chicago Cubs $ 4,300,000
11 Rod Barajas Pittsburgh Pirates $ 4,000,000
12 Miguel Olivo Seattle Mariners $ 3,750,000
13 Carlos Ruiz Philadelphia Phillies $ 3,700,000
14 Chris Iannetta Los Angeles Angels $ 3,550,000
15 Yorvit Torrealba Texas Rangers $ 3,250,000
16 Ramon Hernandez Colorado Rockies $ 3,200,000
17 Ryan Doumit Minnesota Twins $ 3,000,000
18 Jarrod Saltalamacchia Boston Red Sox $ 2,500,000
19 Nick Hundley San Diego Padres $ 2,000,000
20 David Ross Atlanta Braves $ 1,625,000


What is Molina at after signing his big deal?
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