Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

[Mr. Colby]

Come a long way since the days of Duke-Wells-Fogg-Redman-Maholm

[FreeCandy44]

Josh Fogg was the man.

[Rocco]

Come a long way since the days of Duke-Wells-Fogg-Redman-Maholm

The 2009 rotation- Duke, Maholm, Snell (post-meltdown), Ohlendorf, Chaz Morton. Virgil Vaszuez, Daniel McCutchen, Karstens and Kevin Hart ended up combining for 36 starts. I have no idea how I made it through that season without becoming addicted to heroin.

[ville5]

Just keep lining Nuttings pockets while paying to watch the losing teams. Nutting absolutely LOVES people with your attitude and your willingness to accept mediocrity!!
The bullpen is worse, the rotation is full of .500 pitchers and the lineup hasn't improved. The streak will live on.

[KennyTheKangaroo]

Come a long way since the days of Duke-Wells-Fogg-Redman-Maholm

The 2009 rotation- Duke, Maholm, Snell (post-meltdown), Ohlendorf, Chaz Morton. Virgil Vaszuez, Daniel McCutchen, Karstens and Kevin Hart ended up combining for 36 starts. I have no idea how I made it through that season without becoming addicted to heroin.

hhahahaha at least that team didnt feature chan ho park and dana eveland like the 2010 buccos

[LeopardLetang]

Just keep lining Nuttings pockets while paying to watch the losing teams. Nutting absolutely LOVES people with your attitude and your willingness to accept mediocrity!!
The bullpen is worse, the rotation is full of .500 pitchers and the lineup hasn't improved. The streak will live on.

.500 pitchers? it just keeps standing out like a sore thumb. here are some SPs that had losing records last year. peavy, beckett, lester, lincecum, josh johnson, travis wood, haren, samardzija, anibal sanchez.

[Malkamaniac]

Just keep lining Nuttings pockets while paying to watch the losing teams. Nutting absolutely LOVES people with your attitude and your willingness to accept mediocrity!!
The bullpen is worse, the rotation is full of .500 pitchers and the lineup hasn't improved. The streak will live on.

.500 pitchers? it just keeps standing out like a sore thumb. here are some SPs that had losing records last year. peavy, beckett, lester, lincecum, josh johnson, travis wood, haren, samardzija, anibal sanchez.

I'm not sure if that's helping the case. I'd still take any of those pitchers over the ones that did pitch last year. Save for AJ.

[canaan]

yeah, i would love to have more expensive sub .500 pitchers so the same people can come in and beat their chests about "lol the nuttings cant even spend money right"

[Troy Loney]

You should edit that post to take Travis Wood out of the example.

[LeopardLetang]

Just keep lining Nuttings pockets while paying to watch the losing teams. Nutting absolutely LOVES people with your attitude and your willingness to accept mediocrity!!
The bullpen is worse, the rotation is full of .500 pitchers and the lineup hasn't improved. The streak will live on.

.500 pitchers? it just keeps standing out like a sore thumb. here are some SPs that had losing records last year. peavy, beckett, lester, lincecum, josh johnson, travis wood, haren, samardzija, anibal sanchez.

I'm not sure if that's helping the case. I'd still take any of those pitchers over the ones that did pitch last year. Save for AJ.

right. so the point is that you shouldn't judge pitchers by pitcher wins. i'm not arguing against ville5, just trying to get him off the W/L thing. using pitcher record in your argument on some boards would make me think you're as likely to be trolling as you are to be making a convincing argument.

[LeopardLetang]

You should edit that post to take Travis Wood out of the example.

haha, i still like him though i considered not including him

[JS©]

Just keep lining Nuttings pockets while paying to watch the losing teams. Nutting absolutely LOVES people with your attitude and your willingness to accept mediocrity!!
The bullpen is worse, the rotation is full of .500 pitchers and the lineup hasn't improved. The streak will live on.

If this team has .500 pitchers, it might have a better chance at .500.

[Rocco]

The best example of a .500 pitcher is 2010 and 2011 Felix Hernandez. Evaluating a pitcher by his win/loss record is just dumb.

[Defence21]

Signing Bourn would cost the Pirates their 1st round pick. Same with Kyle Lohse. If not for that both guys would be off the market already.

I'm not saying they should sign him -- or that they have the money, but this first rounder thing is interesting. For starters, didn't the Pirates fail to sign their first rounder from last year due to a dumb rule implemented by MLB? Also, didn't they include a first rounder in the deal to acquire Gabby Sanchez? Are first rounders really as valuable to the Pirates as they should be? And, if not, why not lose one if the result is adding a legit long-term player? Again, this is purely hypothetical and not focusing specifically on Bourn.

[Idoit40fans]

I think he might go sign with the braves for one year but the agreement would have to involve them not qualifying him again. That, of course would take a lot from Boras though.

[pfim]

Signing Bourn would cost the Pirates their 1st round pick. Same with Kyle Lohse. If not for that both guys would be off the market already.

I'm not saying they should sign him -- or that they have the money, but this first rounder thing is interesting. For starters, didn't the Pirates fail to sign their first rounder from last year due to a dumb rule implemented by MLB? Also, didn't they include a first rounder in the deal to acquire Gabby Sanchez? Are first rounders really as valuable to the Pirates as they should be? And, if not, why not lose one if the result is adding a legit long-term player? Again, this is purely hypothetical and not focusing specifically on Bourn.

The contract is definitely the bigger stumbling block, though I don't really see the reasoning behind giving Bourn or Lohse, given their ages, a large 4-7 year commitment plus giving up a first round pick.

[Idoit40fans]

Yeah, Bourne is at his peak, if not getting ready to head downhill. That said, I hope he goes back to the Braves and I think its reasonably likely.

[Defence21]

Signing Bourn would cost the Pirates their 1st round pick. Same with Kyle Lohse. If not for that both guys would be off the market already.

I'm not saying they should sign him -- or that they have the money, but this first rounder thing is interesting. For starters, didn't the Pirates fail to sign their first rounder from last year due to a dumb rule implemented by MLB? Also, didn't they include a first rounder in the deal to acquire Gabby Sanchez? Are first rounders really as valuable to the Pirates as they should be? And, if not, why not lose one if the result is adding a legit long-term player? Again, this is purely hypothetical and not focusing specifically on Bourn.

The contract is definitely the bigger stumbling block, though I don't really see the reasoning behind giving Bourn or Lohse, given their ages, a large 4-7 year commitment plus giving up a first round pick.

Right, right. Not advocating either player. Just mentioning that, given the way the Pirates handled their first rounder from last summer and then the supplemental pick they were given for this summer, using a first rounder on a legit, long-term piece certainly isn't a bad idea -- especially if the new system is going to make it difficult/impossible to sign their picks.

[pfim]

Right, right. Not advocating either player. Just mentioning that, given the way the Pirates handled their first rounder from last summer and then the supplemental pick they were given for this summer, using a first rounder on a legit, long-term piece certainly isn't a bad idea -- especially if the new system is going to make it difficult/impossible to sign their picks.

I don't think it's the deterrent it's made out to be no. It gives Boras some cover when he doesn't get Bourn his contract though.

Fact of the matter is, the Pirates aren't in the position to sign free agents to above $13.3 million/per year contracts, both financially and where they are at as a team, so it'll never be put to the test.

I don't think the new system will make it more difficult to sign their picks, that was a one off situation.

[Rocco]

Signing Bourn would cost the Pirates their 1st round pick. Same with Kyle Lohse. If not for that both guys would be off the market already.

I'm not saying they should sign him -- or that they have the money, but this first rounder thing is interesting. For starters, didn't the Pirates fail to sign their first rounder from last year due to a dumb rule implemented by MLB? Also, didn't they include a first rounder in the deal to acquire Gabby Sanchez? Are first rounders really as valuable to the Pirates as they should be? And, if not, why not lose one if the result is adding a legit long-term player? Again, this is purely hypothetical and not focusing specifically on Bourn.

They traded a sandwich pick between the 1st and 2nd round for Sanchez. And they have an extra pick this year from not being able to sign Appel last year. If you legitimately think Bourn is worth a long-term contract for big money, the pick isn't a big deal. I don't think the Pirates are in a position to sign him to that deal, and a 1 year deal would mean the Pirates were sacrificing the 13th overall pick for one season of Bourn.

[Rocco]

Signing Bourn would cost the Pirates their 1st round pick. Same with Kyle Lohse. If not for that both guys would be off the market already.

I'm not saying they should sign him -- or that they have the money, but this first rounder thing is interesting. For starters, didn't the Pirates fail to sign their first rounder from last year due to a dumb rule implemented by MLB? Also, didn't they include a first rounder in the deal to acquire Gabby Sanchez? Are first rounders really as valuable to the Pirates as they should be? And, if not, why not lose one if the result is adding a legit long-term player? Again, this is purely hypothetical and not focusing specifically on Bourn.

The contract is definitely the bigger stumbling block, though I don't really see the reasoning behind giving Bourn or Lohse, given their ages, a large 4-7 year commitment plus giving up a first round pick.

It also doesn't make a lot of sense to throw away a 1st round pick in a system where picks after the 1st round are hit-or-miss for one season of a player, unless you really think that player is the missing piece of the puzzle.

[ville5]

Judging a .500 pitcher on his record for 1 maybe 2 seasons is dumb. But when they're in the league 6,7,8 years then it is what it is.
And who wants .500? Guess that's all it takes to make some happy.

[Rocco]

Judging a .500 pitcher on his record for 1 maybe 2 seasons is dumb. But when they're in the league 6,7,8 years then it is what it is.
And who wants .500? Guess that's all it takes to make some happy.

You do realize that a pitcher's won/loss record is more dependent on the team than the actual pitcher, right? Or are you really saying that Ian Kennedy (15-12 last year, 4.02 ERA) was a better pitcher last season than Cliff Lee (6-9, 3.16 ERA)?

[Rocco]

We should judge pitchers solely on their record. A pitcher with a .526 winning percentage? Bum. Don't let him anywhere near the HOF, he's clearly no good to anyone.

[ulf]

I don't think he can actually be serious about this