Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:40 pm

I hope not. In any case, this isn't a Rose should/shouldn't be in the Hall argument. There is a clear cut right answer, so its not even worth arguing.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:21 pm

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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:31 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I hope not. In any case, this isn't a Rose should/shouldn't be in the Hall argument. There is a clear cut right answer, so its not even worth arguing.


There's a clear cut answer for the Rose thing too :pop:
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:34 pm

Liriano broke his arm in the bathroom... never would have happened if he was over .500
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ville5 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:06 am

Rocco wrote:
ville5 wrote:Judging a .500 pitcher on his record for 1 maybe 2 seasons is dumb. But when they're in the league 6,7,8 years then it is what it is.
And who wants .500? Guess that's all it takes to make some happy.


You do realize that a pitcher's won/loss record is more dependent on the team than the actual pitcher, right? Or are you really saying that Ian Kennedy (15-12 last year, 4.02 ERA) was a better pitcher last season than Cliff Lee (6-9, 3.16 ERA)?

Never said that. Agreed with you judging a .500 pitcher over 1 or 2 seasons is dumb. But if a pitcher is
.500 over 6,7 or 8 plus seasons then that's all he is.
The good pitchers will get their wins no matter what team they are on. Just look at your example of Lee. He had winning records on some very bad Cleveland teams.
And baseball history is full of pitchers with way better than .500 on losing teams.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby pfim on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:47 am

Rocco wrote:We know how Liriano hurt himself.

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/inde ... ht-humerus


$12.75 billion? What a markup.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:47 am

ville5 wrote:
Rocco wrote:
ville5 wrote:Judging a .500 pitcher on his record for 1 maybe 2 seasons is dumb. But when they're in the league 6,7,8 years then it is what it is.
And who wants .500? Guess that's all it takes to make some happy.


You do realize that a pitcher's won/loss record is more dependent on the team than the actual pitcher, right? Or are you really saying that Ian Kennedy (15-12 last year, 4.02 ERA) was a better pitcher last season than Cliff Lee (6-9, 3.16 ERA)?

Never said that. Agreed with you judging a .500 pitcher over 1 or 2 seasons is dumb. But if a pitcher is
.500 over 6,7 or 8 plus seasons then that's all he is.
The good pitchers will get their wins no matter what team they are on. Just look at your example of Lee. He had winning records on some very bad Cleveland teams.
And baseball history is full of pitchers with way better than .500 on losing teams.


Lee pitched regularly on exactly one team in Cleveland that won less than 70 games. He was an under .500 pitcher that year. All a pitcher can do is pitch well. He has no control over the offense around him. Bob Welch had a better career winning percentage than Steve Carlton. Was Welch better than Carlton, or fortunate to spend his career on more good teams?

Pitcher A: 19-7, 4.36 ERA, 1.506 WHIP, 1.34 SO/BB, -0.1 WAR
Pitcher B: 7-9, 4.74 ERA, 1.465 WHIP, 1.77 SO/BB, 0.1 WAR

Pitcher A was Storm Davis with the 1989 A's that won 99 games. Pitcher B was Davis the next year with the 75-win Royals. Davis was the same pitcher both years but his record dropped off because the team was worse. And Nolan Ryan was a .500 pitcher for much of his career.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby pfim on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:55 am

Pitcher wins are meaningless as a stat, it's not even worth discussing.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby LeopardLetang on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:13 am

unless you're trying to teach someone that.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ville5 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:38 am

Rocco wrote:
ville5 wrote:
Rocco wrote:
ville5 wrote:Judging a .500 pitcher on his record for 1 maybe 2 seasons is dumb. But when they're in the league 6,7,8 years then it is what it is.
And who wants .500? Guess that's all it takes to make some happy.


You do realize that a pitcher's won/loss record is more dependent on the team than the actual pitcher, right? Or are you really saying that Ian Kennedy (15-12 last year, 4.02 ERA) was a better pitcher last season than Cliff Lee (6-9, 3.16 ERA)?

Never said that. Agreed with you judging a .500 pitcher over 1 or 2 seasons is dumb. But if a pitcher is
.500 over 6,7 or 8 plus seasons then that's all he is.
The good pitchers will get their wins no matter what team they are on. Just look at your example of Lee. He had winning records on some very bad Cleveland teams.
And baseball history is full of pitchers with way better than .500 on losing teams.


Lee pitched regularly on exactly one team in Cleveland that won less than 70 games. He was an under .500 pitcher that year. All a pitcher can do is pitch well. He has no control over the offense around him. Bob Welch had a better career winning percentage than Steve Carlton. Was Welch better than Carlton, or fortunate to spend his career on more good teams?

Pitcher A: 19-7, 4.36 ERA, 1.506 WHIP, 1.34 SO/BB, -0.1 WAR
Pitcher B: 7-9, 4.74 ERA, 1.465 WHIP, 1.77 SO/BB, 0.1 WAR

Pitcher A was Storm Davis with the 1989 A's that won 99 games. Pitcher B was Davis the next year with the 75-win Royals. Davis was the same pitcher both years but his record dropped off because the team was worse. And Nolan Ryan was a .500 pitcher for much of his career.

My bad, missed the part about 70 wins being a good team.
Anyway, not going off isolated statistics, Lee pitched 4 full seasons in Cleveland.
2004- team 2 games under .500, Lee 6 over.
2005- team 24 over, Lee 13 over.
2006- team 6 under 500, Lee 3 over
2008- team at .500, Lee 19 over.
So 1 winning team of 4 YET, Lee significantly over .500.
Go figure.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rylan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:43 am

wow...
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ulf on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:13 pm

Is this real life
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby pfim on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:17 pm

LeopardLetang wrote:unless you're trying to teach someone that.


No, not even then.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:24 pm

What year is this again? I thought after a guy won the Cy Young with a 13-12 record we reached a point where we understood a pitcher's record was stupid.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ulf on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

Rocco wrote:What year is this again? I thought after a guy won the Cy Young with a 13-12 record we reached a point where we understood a pitcher's record was stupid.

What's wrong with a winning pitcher getting a cy young?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby pittsports87 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

What I have taken from this conversation is a pitcher that barely pitches 5 innings while walking 6 and giving up 5 runs but has the lead after 5 is a better pitcher than a guy that goes out there and pitches a complete game with 10+ K's but loses 1-0.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rylan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:36 pm

pittsports87 wrote:What I have taken from this conversation is a pitcher that barely pitches 5 innings while walking 6 and giving up 5 runs but has the lead after 5 is a better pitcher than a guy that goes out there and pitches a complete game with 10+ K's but loses 1-0.


I have learned so much about evaluating pitchers because of this.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ville5 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:44 pm

Rocco wrote:What year is this again? I thought after a guy won the Cy Young with a 13-12 record we reached a point where we understood a pitcher's record was stupid.

So wrong. Anyway, should/is Opie (be) in on Kubel?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ville5 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:14 pm

pittsports87 wrote:What I have taken from this conversation is a pitcher that barely pitches 5 innings while walking 6 and giving up 5 runs but has the lead after 5 is a better pitcher than a guy that goes out there and pitches a complete game with 10+ K's but loses 1-0.

That's an isolated incident that happens once a year if that. Nothing to do with long term winning. Or did you miss that part?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:13 am

Pirates Prospects is basically releasing their top 10 prospects for the pirates today with the writeup on #7 coming today.

(1-6 will assuradely be Cole, Taillon, Polanco, Heredia, Hansen, Bell)

I assume it will have to be Barrett Barnes, I'm not sure I agree with having Glasnow and Barnes ahead of Clay Holmes. Out of all the prep pitcher, Holmes had the most success at State College in his first full pro season. I think Kingham was impressive too, but Holmes has much more upside than him.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:30 am

will we see cole this year?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:37 am

I think in terms of development, it would be good for him to get a call up after June and spend sometime in the bullpen. That seems to be how a lot of teams like to break in starter prospects...at least the Rays did that with Price and Morris and it seems like a better long term move.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:38 am

Troy Loney wrote:I think in terms of development, it would be good for him to get a call up after June and spend sometime in the bullpen. That seems to be how a lot of teams like to break in starter prospects...at least the Rays did that with Price and Morris and it seems like a better long term move.


In a mop up role?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:46 am

I would think pressure situations. I don't know, mitch williams was talking about this on MLB network a while back. He endorsed what the Rays did with Price, this allows young pitchers with great stuff to come into the majors and not have to worry as much with the mental stuff. They only need to worry about getting guys out once and not have to go through the lineup multiple times. This allows them to get some comfort and confidence and ML hitters. It puts the guy in a position to succeed.

Ideally, the Pirates would be competiting for a playoff spot and Cole can be a weapon as a setup guy.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:52 am

Big baseball weekend for me in April:

Orioles at A's on the 26th (I'll be there for work)
Then fly home on Saturday and hopefully catch two of the four West Virginia at Savannah games
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