One Space or Two?

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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:17 pm

Kraftster wrote:
Letang Is The Truth wrote:i only do 1 on here because i am too lazy to do 2 use any accepted typographic conventions like capital letters and other forms of punctuation


well played. i do use punctuation.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:25 pm

Kraftster wrote:I have been encountering more and more instances of one space after periods, between sentences. I was always taught two (2) spaces -- like I'm doing in this post (and every other post I've ever written on LGP). I think it would take several months to retrain my thumb to type only one space.

I've yet to see any reputable source state that one space is proper. I have always understood that one space is permissible in print journalism where page space is important, but that is the only time I've ever heard of one space being proper.

In particular, I've been seeing a ton of legal work lately that contains only one space after periods. I can't imagine this would ever be preferred by courts, where readability should be the chief concern when establishing typographic rules.

What say you? Am I missing something?

Edit: Upon completing this post I realized that LGP changes my two spaces to one. :scared:

One space is insane.

Also, I hate "justify." Just left align it. The rivers of white space running down the pages in justify is not pleasing to the eye.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:26 pm

columbia wrote:Two spaces is only for people, who desperately need to ramp up their page count for a paper.

Adding an additional space wouldn't even increase your page length one line.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby ulf on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:26 pm

Shyster will be here soon enough to set us straight.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:27 pm

ulf wrote:Shyster will be here soon enough to set us straight.

:thumb:
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Kraftster on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:28 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Kraftster wrote:I have been encountering more and more instances of one space after periods, between sentences. I was always taught two (2) spaces -- like I'm doing in this post (and every other post I've ever written on LGP). I think it would take several months to retrain my thumb to type only one space.

I've yet to see any reputable source state that one space is proper. I have always understood that one space is permissible in print journalism where page space is important, but that is the only time I've ever heard of one space being proper.

In particular, I've been seeing a ton of legal work lately that contains only one space after periods. I can't imagine this would ever be preferred by courts, where readability should be the chief concern when establishing typographic rules.

What say you? Am I missing something?

Edit: Upon completing this post I realized that LGP changes my two spaces to one. :scared:

One space is insane.

Also, I hate "justify." Just left align it. The rivers of white space running down the pages in justify is not pleasing to the eye.


Completely agree on justify.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby count2infinity on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:29 pm

I justify all of my papers because it's more or less required in scientific writing.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Kraftster on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:30 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
columbia wrote:Two spaces is only for people, who desperately need to ramp up their page count for a paper.

Adding an additional space wouldn't even increase your page length one line.


What finally prompted the creation of this thread was a 25 page brief from opposing counsel with only a single space between sentences. These attorneys had, up to this point, always used 2 spaces in any motions or briefs that they filed. I was wondering whether it might have been a space-saving move because they used every line of the 25 pages we were permitted. I do wonder how much space it would actually give you over 25 pages.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:31 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
columbia wrote:Two spaces is only for people, who desperately need to ramp up their page count for a paper.

Adding an additional space wouldn't even increase your page length one line.


i once changed all my periods to 18 point font on a 25 page neurophysiology paper in college and it added over 3 pages and you couldnt even notice
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:31 pm

The Chief Judge of the Seventh Circuit, Frank Easterbrook, published an extensive style guide complete with rationales for each rule. He had three briefs rejected as a practitioner for local court rules that were not published. As Chief Judge, he vowed to make every rule clear.

http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/rules/type.pdf

Relevant here:

Put only one space after punctuation. The typewriter convention of two spaces is for monospaced type only. When used with proportionally spaced type, extra spaces lead to what typographers call “rivers”—wide, meandering areas of white space up and down a page. Rivers interfere with the eyes’ movement from one word to the next.


Do not justify your text unless you hyphenate it too. If you fully justify unhyphenated text, rivers result as the word processing or page layout program adds white space between words so that the margins line up.


So it appears I'm hypocritical with my rivers comment.

Use typefaces that were designed for books. Both the Supreme Court and the Solicitor General use Century. Professional typographers set books in New Baskerville, Book Antiqua, Calisto, Century, Century Schoolbook, Bookman Old Style and many other proportionally spaced serif faces. Any face with the word “book” in its name is likely to be good for legal work. Baskerville, Bembo, Caslon, Deepdene, Galliard, Jenson, Minion, Palatino, Pontifex, Stone Serif, Trump Mediäval, and Utopia are among other faces designed for use in books and thus suitable for brief-length presentations.

Professional typographers avoid using Times New Roman for book-length (or brief-length) documents. This face was designed for newspapers, which are printed in narrow columns, and has a small x-height in order to squeeze extra characters into the narrow space. Type with a small x-height functions well in columns that contain just a few words, but not when columns are wide (as in briefs and other legal papers). In the days before Rule 32, when briefs had page limits rather than word limits, a typeface such as Times New Roman enabled lawyers to shoehorn more argument into a brief. Now that only words count, however, everyone gains from a more legible typeface, even if that means extra pages. Experiment with your own briefs to see the
Last edited by TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:32 pm

Letang Is The Truth wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
columbia wrote:Two spaces is only for people, who desperately need to ramp up their page count for a paper.

Adding an additional space wouldn't even increase your page length one line.


i once changed all my periods to 18 point font on a 25 page neurophysiology paper in college and it added over 3 pages and you couldnt even notice

Changing the font size will alter the length, but that is because you are decreasing the number of liners per page. Increasing the number of space-per-line, on the other hand, has a very minimal effect.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:32 pm

Petition to rename this to the "Lawyer circle**** thread"

Edit: just in case that word's not allowed :lol:
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby pittsports87 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:33 pm

I use two, it's a habit. I've always done it that way and always will.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:34 pm

Kraftster wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
columbia wrote:Two spaces is only for people, who desperately need to ramp up their page count for a paper.

Adding an additional space wouldn't even increase your page length one line.


What finally prompted the creation of this thread was a 25 page brief from opposing counsel with only a single space between sentences. These attorneys had, up to this point, always used 2 spaces in any motions or briefs that they filed. I was wondering whether it might have been a space-saving move because they used every line of the 25 pages we were permitted. I do wonder how much space it would actually give you over 25 pages.

Very, very, little. Try it. Ctrl+H one of your briefs. Find "[space][space]" and replace it with [space] or three spaces. The only time it will have an effect are on those lines that are at the exact maximum space-per-line. Very few lines are this close to teetering onto the next line.

Edit: Hmm. I had a ten-page single-spaced memo in century school book. Adding an additional space (from two to three) added 9 lines. Sorry to those I said were wrong.
Last edited by TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:36 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Petition to rename this to the "Lawyer circle**** thread"

Edit: just in case that word's not allowed :lol:

Busted.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Kraftster on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:38 pm

Uh oh. Looks like I'm the one that's incorrect.

Per Bryan Garner's The Redbook: A Manual on Legal Style

Horizontal Spacing
4.12 Use even forward-spacing in your documents: one space between words and one space after punctuation marks (including colons and periods).


He goes on to explain:
On a computer, you almost certainly have fonts with proportional spacing. Letters fit together snugly, words are more legible as discrete entities, and spaces stand out. Because double-spacing between sentences looks odd with proportionally spaced type, most word processors can automatically replace two spaces with one. And if you use two forward spaces and justify the right margin, a line may break between the spaces and end short of the right margin.


Gah...
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:42 pm

I used to use 2 all the time, then I had one of my teachers tell me that it was unfair to the kids that only used one space when we had to type papers.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:42 pm

:oops:

At least you beat Shyster in correcting yourself.

Maybe I'll start Find-and-Replacing all my two-spaces. I don't think I could teach my thumb to hit the space bar once after a sentence.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Kraftster on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:43 pm

TheHammer24 wrote::oops:

At least you beat Shyster in correcting yourself.

Maybe I'll start Find-and-Replacing all my two-spaces. I don't think I could teach my thumb to hit the space bar once after a sentence.


Same.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby columbia on Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:46 pm

I do a fair amount of writing for work and all of it is published on the web and in no other format.
HTML deems that I - and every other human being or machine writing for that medium - can only use one space after a period.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby MWB on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:06 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:Two spaces is archaic. I let it slide with older folks.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:07 pm

Yeah, when I was in school it became correct to use one space. Still type two. Even thinking about it here I am still doing it.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:13 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah, when I was in school it became correct to use one space. Still type two. Even thinking about it here I am still doing it.

The problem seems to begin in elementary school.[one space]There, people like Kraftster, TheHammer24, and others teach based on their own, dated habits.[one space]As a result, kids develop the wrong habit and can't break it.
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby Shyster on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:42 pm

ulf wrote:Shyster will be here soon enough to set us straight.

“Use even forward-spacing in your documents: one space between words and one space after punctuation marks (including colons and periods).” Bryan A Garner, The Redbook: A Manual on Legal Style § 4.12(a) (2d ed. 2006).

Always put exactly one space between sentences. Or more generally: put exactly one space after any punctuation.” Matthew Butterick, Typography for Lawyers 41 (2010) (emphasis in original).

“Use only one space, rather than two, after punctuation, whether it separates who sentences (periods, question marks, exclamation marks) or parts of a sentence (colons).” Kenneth A Adams, A Manual of Style for Contract Drafting § 15.50 (2d ed. 2008).

“In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after each period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a colon, or any other mark of punctuation.” Robert Bringhurst, The Elements of Typographic Style 29–30 (Version 3.2, 2008).
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Re: One Space or Two?

Postby ulf on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:43 pm

That's it, I'm writing Shyster in for president.
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