Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby MWB on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:30 pm

llipgh2 wrote:Just read a bit more about this in the P-G. The mother (34) stood the boy on the railing. Almost immediately he fell off.

What was she thinking? I know parents sometimes do things they shouldn't. Like sit kids on railings, thinking their grip is tight enough to hold to the child.

But to stand a 2 year old, who wouldn't have great balance, on a railing? Wow...this was so easily preventable.


I'd be willing to bet that she was holding onto him from behind, not that he was just standing there on his own.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Geezer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:32 pm

blackjack68 wrote:
Geezer wrote:
NeddieVedder wrote:Gathering some evidence for my personal definition of the word "cretin" based on the evidence presented in this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism
Since she may not have had stunted growth so this was obviously exagerated. I'll change it to she was way too stupid and irresponsible to raise a child.


And my wishing the refs at today's game dead was harsh?

I don;t know. Bad calls at a sporting event don't equate to causing the death of a 2 year old in my book. Different strokes I guess.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby IrishEyes on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:32 pm

I need the "I don't want to live in this world anymore" pic from reading some of these posts.

It's a terrible tragedy, but I'm certainly not going to condemn anyone over. It's horrible and heartbreaking. My thoughts and prayers are with the family.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby llipgh2 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Yes it was an accident. But it doesn't absolve her. And sadly her child paid the price for her lapse in judgement.

That said I don't think prosecuting her does anything. She has to live with this the rest of her life. That enough is horrific punishment .
Last edited by llipgh2 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby JS© on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm

llipgh2 wrote:Just read a bit more about this in the P-G. The mother (34) stood the boy on the railing. Almost immediately he fell off.

What was she thinking? I know parents sometimes do things they shouldn't. Like sit kids on railings, thinking their grip is tight enough to hold to the child.

But to stand a 2 year old, who wouldn't have great balance, on a railing? Wow...this was so easily preventable.


Not gonna try to point blame and say what could and couldn't have been done, but this part is really important. Not just on a railing, but a railing 14 feet above the area containing the animals.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Geezer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:45 pm

MWB wrote:
llipgh2 wrote:Just read a bit more about this in the P-G. The mother (34) stood the boy on the railing. Almost immediately he fell off.

What was she thinking? I know parents sometimes do things they shouldn't. Like sit kids on railings, thinking their grip is tight enough to hold to the child.

But to stand a 2 year old, who wouldn't have great balance, on a railing? Wow...this was so easily preventable.


I'd be willing to bet that she was holding onto him from behind, not that he was just standing there on his own.

If I'm not mistaken you're a teacher, right? If so; if you had a kindergarten class or a first grade class would you allow 5 or 6 year to stand or be held on a fence over predatory animals? If you have kids of your own would you have put a 2 year old in such a position?
90% of the posters in this thread can disagree with me but she's in the same group as a DUI parent killing their own kid or a parent being careless with a loaded gun causing a tragedy.
Personal responsibility seems to be a vanishing concept in our country.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby MWB on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:49 pm

Of course I wouldn't do that with my kids or other kids. However, I don't know the whole situation or even if that happened.

This whole "personal responsibility is vanishing" schtick gets old. No, it's not. Just because there are people here who aren't wanting to place judgement on a mother who just lost her child in a situation we didn't witness and aren't completely clear on doesn't mean that we don't agree with personal responsibility. Judging someone also doesn't mean that you're the pillar of personal responsibility. Those are two completely separate issues.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Godric on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:05 pm

MWB wrote:Of course I wouldn't do that with my kids or other kids. However, I don't know the whole situation or even if that happened.

This whole "personal responsibility is vanishing" schtick gets old. No, it's not. Just because there are people here who aren't wanting to place judgement on a mother who just lost her child in a situation we didn't witness and aren't completely clear on doesn't mean that we don't agree with personal responsibility. Judging someone also doesn't mean that you're the pillar of personal responsibility. Those are two completely separate issues.



This.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Geezer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:07 pm

MWB wrote:Of course I wouldn't do that with my kids or other kids. However, I don't know the whole situation or even if that happened.

This whole "personal responsibility is vanishing" schtick gets old. No, it's not. Just because there are people here who aren't wanting to place judgement on a mother who just lost her child in a situation we didn't witness and aren't completely clear on doesn't mean that we don't agree with personal responsibility. Judging someone also doesn't mean that you're the pillar of personal responsibility. Those are two completely separate issues.

i guess we'll just disagree then. I have no problem "judging"someone acting totally irresponsibly. A year or so my daughter was at a store with an adjoining laundromat. Some druggie mom left 3 young kids alone there and told them to wait until she came back(from turning a trick,scoring some dope,whatever) My daughter stayed with these kids until that pig returned. But then I guess that's rather judgemental and makes me erroneously claiming to be a pillar of responsibility.(I got to check my posts since I don't remember making that claim).To me there are many gutless people around who don't want to "condemn "people. I prefaced most of what I said with if the news reports are right. There seems to be zero doubt about what happened. If this 2 year old pole vaulted over the fence in a suicide attempt then I take it all back. Whatever; no use either of us beating a dead horse on a subject we see totally differently.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby bhaw on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:49 pm

I feel terrible for the toddler. My daughter is 3 and loves the zoo. I can't even fathom what that's like, and I hope for the toddler's sake he was not aware of what happened when the dogs got there.

In terms of the side conversation going on:

1. Based on all reports, it seems pretty clear it's the mother who is responsible - the child didn't throw himself over, and if someone else put him up there, we'd have heard about it
2. While she's responsible, I'll hold off on lambasting the mom unless she tries to blame or sue the zoo for this by citing "There's no sign that says to not dangle your child over predatory animals!" If she does that, all bets are off.
3. I think it's absolutely necessary to assign "blame" (I'd call it responsibility) in something like this so you can figure out where the system broke down and prevent it from happening again. By saying "it's too early" or "it's not necessary" to assign this, you are inviting it to happen again b/c you don't want to hurt the feelings of someone who feels bad.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:52 pm

I'm actually surprised by all this "you weren't there, you didn't see it blah blah." By all reports the mother put the child up on the railing and he fell over. It's one thing to lift the child, keep them against your body, and have them at chest level with the railing to get a better view but it's an all together different thing to put them on top, sit them on, or hold them over the railing with wild animals/a large fall below them. This woman can absolutely be judged as making a terrible decision and ultimately be held responsible for the death to her child.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Geezer on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:09 am

Pavel Bure wrote:I'm actually surprised by all this "you weren't there, you didn't see it blah blah." By all reports the mother put the child up on the railing and he fell over. It's one thing to lift the child, keep them against your body, and have them at chest level with the railing to get a better view but it's an all together different thing to put them on top, sit them on, or hold them over the railing with wild animals/a large fall below them. This woman can absolutely be judged as making a terrible decision and ultimately be held responsible for the death to her child.

I'm stumped by those sticking up for this person. When you see a fence that's a barrier to danger do you consider it a standing/sitting point for toddlers to get a good view of the danger? I'm in the minority because I've never considered them as such. I don't believe in beating kids but if one of my kids started to climb such a fence I would have wailed them in the butt a couple times to make sure they never did such a thing again. There's a totally different mentality today that eludes me. And I have no desire to try to understand the rationalization of this woman's behavior.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby AlexPKeaton on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:43 am

They need to shoot all of the dogs. I'll volunteer to do the shooting.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Godric on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:48 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:They need to shoot all of the dogs. I'll volunteer to do the shooting.


Lol

People are hilarious
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby AlexPKeaton on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:48 am

bhaw wrote:I feel terrible for the toddler. My daughter is 3 and loves the zoo. I can't even fathom what that's like, and I hope for the toddler's sake he was not aware of what happened when the dogs got there.

In terms of the side conversation going on:

1. Based on all reports, it seems pretty clear it's the mother who is responsible - the child didn't throw himself over, and if someone else put him up there, we'd have heard about it
2. While she's responsible, I'll hold off on lambasting the mom unless she tries to blame or sue the zoo for this by citing "There's no sign that says to not dangle your child over predatory animals!" If she does that, all bets are off.
3. I think it's absolutely necessary to assign "blame" (I'd call it responsibility) in something like this so you can figure out where the system broke down and prevent it from happening again. By saying "it's too early" or "it's not necessary" to assign this, you are inviting it to happen again b/c you don't want to hurt the feelings of someone who feels bad.


The problem with that exhibit in particlar, IIRC (I always skip it because I could care less about these dogs, I have a dog at home) the exhibit is hard to see anything for anyone who can't see over the railing because instead of glass in the front they have that rustic wood fencing stuff. So you are almost forced to lift a kid up high to see anything. This is unlike most of the other exhibits where they have glass so a toddler can stay on the ground.

Also, if these animals are so deadly, why don't they do what they do with the large cat exhibits and have a ditch between the animals and the people? So even if you fell over the fence there is still a ditch between you and the animals? Seems like the zoo is going to get the crap sued out of it.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby AlexPKeaton on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:49 am

Godric wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:They need to shoot all of the dogs. I'll volunteer to do the shooting.


Lol

People are hilarious



Shoot the deadly dogs, and get some normal dogs and paint them. Next time a kid falls over they will just lick him.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Godric on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:57 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:
Godric wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:They need to shoot all of the dogs. I'll volunteer to do the shooting.


Lol

People are hilarious



Shoot the deadly dogs, and get some normal dogs and paint them. Next time a kid falls over they will just lick him.


People always gotta have retribution
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby FreeCandy44 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:01 am

This thread is so going to get deleted.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby bhaw on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:17 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:
Shoot the deadly dogs, and get some normal dogs and paint them. Next time a kid falls over they will just lick him.


I know your goal is just to get reaction here, but I'd say that the type of animal in this story is irrelevant. A toddler falls into any enclosure containing a predator with any size to it and you have the same outcome. People are pulling quotes and stats about these dogs, but I'm sure if it was any other animal, you could find stats about how aggressive or deadly they are.

Some 300 mountain goats live in Olympic National Park. Warnings about their aggressiveness have been issued

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outpost ... -park.html

Case in point.

Obviously, the main issue is a toddler died in an avoidable situation.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:31 am

It was obviously a bad call on her part, but it is so difficult to raise a kid and be 100% perfect until the kid is, well, old enough to take care of him/herself. One split second, one moment, one bad call among a thousand good ones, and a tragedy happens. Bad luck sometimes kicks your ass. So to go off on the mom or dad in a situation like this, right after they lost their child in what seems an accident, is unresponsible, at best. They may be the best parents in the world, just made one very bad mistake and this happened. Sometimes people lose the correct perspective and fall into emotion-filled tirades. Should at least wait to see an interview or something.

And maybe the Zoo should get some blame for not having security peeps standing around dangerous cages or having a safer exhibit. In fact, maybe the railing/fence (never been there) are a security hazard in itself. Alex wrote above that that thing is hard to see, so I bet a lot of parents will try to hold a child up so they could see better. Just that this time, this happened.

I certainly don't think that calling for sterilization of the mother is the right response right now.

btw, I think Geezer just set a record for most single-day insults on LGP. Towards the parents, I mean. :)
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:35 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:
bhaw wrote:I feel terrible for the toddler. My daughter is 3 and loves the zoo. I can't even fathom what that's like, and I hope for the toddler's sake he was not aware of what happened when the dogs got there.

In terms of the side conversation going on:

1. Based on all reports, it seems pretty clear it's the mother who is responsible - the child didn't throw himself over, and if someone else put him up there, we'd have heard about it
2. While she's responsible, I'll hold off on lambasting the mom unless she tries to blame or sue the zoo for this by citing "There's no sign that says to not dangle your child over predatory animals!" If she does that, all bets are off.
3. I think it's absolutely necessary to assign "blame" (I'd call it responsibility) in something like this so you can figure out where the system broke down and prevent it from happening again. By saying "it's too early" or "it's not necessary" to assign this, you are inviting it to happen again b/c you don't want to hurt the feelings of someone who feels bad.


The problem with that exhibit in particlar, IIRC (I always skip it because I could care less about these dogs, I have a dog at home) the exhibit is hard to see anything for anyone who can't see over the railing because instead of glass in the front they have that rustic wood fencing stuff. So you are almost forced to lift a kid up high to see anything. This is unlike most of the other exhibits where they have glass so a toddler can stay on the ground.

Also, if these animals are so deadly, why don't they do what they do with the large cat exhibits and have a ditch between the animals and the people? So even if you fell over the fence there is still a ditch between you and the animals? Seems like the zoo is going to get the crap sued out of it.

Except that if you walk ten feet there's a giant glass window you can stand in front of that is at the dogs level and you can see them. No reason to lift the child.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:40 am

Sarcastic wrote:It was obviously a bad call on her part, but it is so difficult to raise a kid and be 100% perfect until the kid is, well, old enough to take care of him/herself. One split second, one moment, one bad call among a thousand good ones, and a tragedy happens. Bad luck sometimes kicks your ass. So to go off on the mom or dad in a situation like this, right after they lost their child in what seems an accident, is unresponsible, at best. They may be the best parents in the world, just made one very bad mistake and this happened. Sometimes people lose the correct perspective and fall into emotion-filled tirades. Should at least wait to see an interview or something.

And maybe the Zoo should get some blame for not having security peeps standing around dangerous cages or having a safer exhibit. In fact, maybe the railing/fence (never been there) are a security hazard in itself. Alex wrote above that that thing is hard to see, so I bet a lot of parents will try to hold a child up so they could see better. Just that this time, this happened.

I certainly don't think that calling for sterilization of the mother is the right response right now.

btw, I think Geezer just set a record for most single-day insults on LGP. Towards the parents, I mean. :)

The bolded part is right but not in this case. Not in the case of putting your child in direct danger. This women was completely wrong, this isn't a case of "Oh well raising kids is tough and this could happen to anyone." Don't stand your child on the railing that they're not supposed to stand on and can't stand on by themselves and this wouldn't have happened. The whole "You can't control everything" B.S. I'm seeing from a lot of people is unbelievable. The parent put their child in this position. It wasn't a look away for a second situation, it was a I put my child in a super dangerous situation and the worst possible thing happened... I shouldn't feed the troll.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby bh on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:31 am

I think that while the woman obviously made a fatal stupid mistake, the zoo is going to take the blunt of the blame. You just can't have a set-up where this "could" happen. They are going to get their pants sued off and rightfully so.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby AlexPKeaton on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:39 am

Pavel Bure wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:It was obviously a bad call on her part, but it is so difficult to raise a kid and be 100% perfect until the kid is, well, old enough to take care of him/herself. One split second, one moment, one bad call among a thousand good ones, and a tragedy happens. Bad luck sometimes kicks your ass. So to go off on the mom or dad in a situation like this, right after they lost their child in what seems an accident, is unresponsible, at best. They may be the best parents in the world, just made one very bad mistake and this happened. Sometimes people lose the correct perspective and fall into emotion-filled tirades. Should at least wait to see an interview or something.

And maybe the Zoo should get some blame for not having security peeps standing around dangerous cages or having a safer exhibit. In fact, maybe the railing/fence (never been there) are a security hazard in itself. Alex wrote above that that thing is hard to see, so I bet a lot of parents will try to hold a child up so they could see better. Just that this time, this happened.

I certainly don't think that calling for sterilization of the mother is the right response right now.

btw, I think Geezer just set a record for most single-day insults on LGP. Towards the parents, I mean. :)

The bolded part is right but not in this case. Not in the case of putting your child in direct danger. This women was completely wrong, this isn't a case of "Oh well raising kids is tough and this could happen to anyone." Don't stand your child on the railing that they're not supposed to stand on and can't stand on by themselves and this wouldn't have happened. The whole "You can't control everything" B.S. I'm seeing from a lot of people is unbelievable. The parent put their child in this position. It wasn't a look away for a second situation, it was a I put my child in a super dangerous situation and the worst possible thing happened... I shouldn't feed the troll.


Mistakes can and will happen when you are dealing with people. It is the zookeepers responsibility to ensure that a single error by the patrons does not cause a death. Especially when the patrons are primarily toddlers, young parents, and large groups of grade school kids on a field trip, and whose motivation is to actually see the animals over the railing. Multiple layers of safety is a basic design tenant when designing anything that is safety related. Also, likely most people have no idea how deadly those dogs are. I had no idea. I'm sure the mother wouldn't have done this if that was an overhang for a tiger exhibit.
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Re: Tragedy today at Pittsburgh Zoo

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:39 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:I'd say this is an example of Darwinism, but that little boy sure didn't deserve that outcome.


how does this have anything to do with darwinism? the kid didnt jump into the pen on his own accord.
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